tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post2014798032220507686..comments2024-03-27T04:46:33.198-07:00Comments on Portable Antiquity Collecting and Heritage Issues: Ed Snible's Fouree and Views on the Egypt MOU Paul Barfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-11314468844957239402014-04-29T20:35:53.288-07:002014-04-29T20:35:53.288-07:00Well, obviously a US coin collector's definiti...Well, obviously a US coin collector's definition of the word "boycott" has a different meaning from that used in the rest of the world. It is this deliberate imprecision of the words used by the likes of Mr Tompa in the public debate which I find annoying. <br /><br />You seem to think most artefacts enter the market from individual "finders" rather than through criminal looters. Ask yourself whether that is would be the case if (to use your pal lawyer's favourite analogy) in the UK, the PAS was shut down and metal detectorists restricted to beaches. Who would be putting the finds on the UK market then? <br /><br />I am not sure why you think we/you do not already have "legit antiquities dealers who have the ability to inform on crooks and smugglers". <br /> <br /><br />Paul Barfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-47688902158718495262014-04-28T18:08:57.982-07:002014-04-28T18:08:57.982-07:00At least one Pharaoh struck coins. See http://cng...At least one Pharaoh struck coins. See http://cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=16236 for an example of a gold stater struck by Nektembo II, probably to pay mercenaries. You are mostly correct in that coin usage did not really take off in Egypt until the Macedonian occupation. I would call the Ptolemaic coinage "Egyptian" but I see your point. Later there was coinage under the Roman occupation, mostly with Roman themes but also series struck for the nomes which I would call "Egyptian".<br /><br />Paul, I am a collector and not a dealer. I typically buy 12 to 24 coins a year. All I need to learn about the laws is a simple bright line that will keep me out of court. My normal occupation is in software engineering. Reading the law is hard for me, as words like "should" and "must" have different meanings than I am used to.<br /><br />Yet if I had to make an ethical stand it would be for my current position. I *want* dealers to put provenances in catalogs for future scholars. If I receive the provenance only upon making the winning bid then I become the custodian of that documentation -- a responsibility I do not need.<br /><br />By "a US boycott" I was referring to "reverse trade sanctions" imposed by the state department but not being picked up by our allies in Europe and the Gulf states. The US is considering voluntarily shutting down imports of minor Egyptian antiquities, a situation analogous to a consumer boycott. I was not referring to a grassroots consumer movement in the US.<br /><br />As for why I oppose, *for coins*, the proposed MOU, it is because I believe it will provide a false sense of security and accomplishment. Me not buying a coin merely means it goes to the underbidder. There is a whole economic literature on the effectiveness of boycotts and sanctions, which I am not qualified to discuss technically, but I can say a small boycott in a large market does nothing measurable.<br /><br />To clean the market we need legit antiquities dealers who have the ability to inform on crooks and smugglers. We also need *local* stakeholders, e.g. farmers and municipal authorities, to feel their farm or municipality gets a better deal on the legit market than the black market.Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-7050484677482780072014-04-27T22:26:31.393-07:002014-04-27T22:26:31.393-07:00"My rule-of-thumb ...."
but that is not ..."<i>My rule-of-thumb ....</i>"<br />but that is <b>not at all</b> what the CCPIA and MOUs actually say. It is YOU who are thus making of them a system of regulation more restrictive than they actually are.<br /><br />"<i>My understanding is .... </i>" wrong.<br /><br />I suggest you'd get a better "understanding" of the documents by reading their actual texts. <br /><br />The ones we are discussing are nothing to do with "getting documentation" neither of findspots nor stratigraphy. Really. <br /><br /><i>"My assumption is that there is enough of a market in Europe and the Gulf states for ancient Egyptian coins... </i><br />The ancient Egyptians did not strike coins. <br /><br /><i> a US boycott ...</i>"<br />WHAT "US boycot"? One based on your own "rule of thumb"? Get real, you are fighting phantoms. <br /><br />And of course once again, we are <b>not talking here just about importing freshly dugup coins, as even a cursory glance of a few dealer's webpage shopfronts will easily show, today they are in fact a very minor part of the market for portable antiquities from ancient Egypt. Why oppose cleaning up this market</b>? <br />Paul Barfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-51319298721891721402014-04-27T18:48:39.123-07:002014-04-27T18:48:39.123-07:00After further study I think you correct and I am w...After further study I think you correct and I am wrong about the reverse die. I am still convinced the obverse die matches.Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-36284002154776714492014-04-27T18:07:15.500-07:002014-04-27T18:07:15.500-07:00Paul, I'm not a lawyer. My rule-of-thumb is t...Paul, I'm not a lawyer. My rule-of-thumb is to not attempt to import anything minted in a time-period & country covered by an MOU unless there is a provenance predating the MOU. My understanding is that this means from anywhere -- for example, don't import from Canada the coins the Greeks struck in Sicily.<br /><br />My understanding about the purpose of the Convention on Antiquities comes more from reading the autobiography of smuggler Michel van Rijn than from ACCG's newsletter. Statues and icons were stolen from temples and graveyards. Hacking off statue heads is terrible! My government tells me [ http://eca.state.gov/cultural-heritage-center/cultural-property-protection/process-and-purpose/background ] that the convention is to "reduce the incentive for pillage of archaeological and ethnological material.".<br /><br />I have sympathy for laws that help me get the kind of documentation I want for study (findspots) and that you want (stratiography). I would like to see sellers become proactive in documenting coins as being on the market before the MOU. I published an editorial in the major US ancient coin magazine toward that purpose. Unfortunately it isn't happening. My assumption is that there is enough of a market in Europe and the Gulf states for ancient Egyptian coins that a US boycott will not be sufficient to motivate the market to produce the documentation you desire.<br />Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.com