tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post3684138207592579875..comments2024-03-27T04:46:33.198-07:00Comments on Portable Antiquity Collecting and Heritage Issues: US Ancient Coin Collectors Lose Sight of Code of EthicsPaul Barfordhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-35874311478452842942011-11-17T03:33:18.899-08:002011-11-17T03:33:18.899-08:00"I didn't mean to imply I am a more worth...<i>"I didn't mean to imply I am a more worthy steward than an Indian citizen."</i> <br />Well, it certainly came over that way, and that IS a staple of the ACCG neo-colonialist stand on "cultural property internationalism", isn't it? <br /><br /><i>"I meant that the coin was already in commerce",</i> <br />The coin was in INDIA. If there is a constant and unregulated drain of coins from the local market, this will have to be topped up by more looting. Which is why I'd like to see the regulations followed by sellers and buyers alike. What is wrong with that? <br /><br /><i>"The point of the antiquities treaties is to prevent Western wealth from tempting diggers."</i> <br />Actually it is not, read them, not Tompa. Look at the wider context. <br /><br /><i>"It shouldn't matter whose tray holds a $0.02 object"</i><br />Perhaps you are right, and if the girl is just a few months under the age of consent, or somebody was only 35 miles an hour over the speed limit and the flatscreen TV is only a little bit stolen, and so on. Does (did) the ACCG Code of Ethics give the monetary limit above which it begins to be applicable? In what currency?<br /><br /><i>"It's true I wanted to start a discussion but I had hoped to have it among my peers ..."</i> Ha! What kind of "discussion" would you expect from the guffawing mob on one of Dave Welsh's mud-slinging "discussion" lists? Don't make me laugh. <br /><br /><i>"I'm looking to discover not a code of ethics but a framework that aligns the interests of scholars, scholar/collectors, collectors, and land-owners.,</i><br />Which landowner did you have in mind in the case of your Kushan coin? <br /><br />My thought is that any such framework ought to start with the notion of private collectors actually recognising the existence of laws that regulate such things as the extraction of artefacts from the ground and their removal from one country to another. It would start with them refusing to have anything to do with those that break those laws - for whatever reason. How can you have "scholarship" based on stolen and illicitly obtained data? Can you name me any other branch of scholarship in the US which would allow such a thing? It seems to me that nobody is going to want to establish any kind of "framework" with a group of people that support the ACCG Schutz und Trutband which is fighting to continue the trade in illegally exported artefacts from the source countries, "no-questions-asked". Carry on like that and there will be no "framework". How would you imagine there could be? Write your own code of ethics which would not weasel-word around the issue of the illicit coins on the market, and face up to the challenge of RESPONSIBLY doing something about it. Until collectors do something about it, they will be criticised - and quite rightfully so.Paul Barfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-48169097163139316232011-11-16T12:07:11.599-08:002011-11-16T12:07:11.599-08:00I didn't mean to imply I am a more worthy stew...I didn't mean to imply I am a more worthy steward than an Indian citizen. I meant that the coin was already in commerce. The point of the antiquities treaties is to prevent Western wealth from tempting diggers. It shouldn't matter whose tray holds a $0.02 object.<br /><br />It's true I wanted to start a discussion but I had hoped to have it among my peers before opening it to tenacious critics. I applaud national pride and understand the appeal of patrimony laws but feel they lead to "tragedy of the commons" situations stripping landowners of rights and incentives to protect cultural objects. I'm looking to discover not a code of ethics but a framework that aligns the interests of scholars, scholar/collectors, collectors, and land-owners.Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-27343138670922758282011-11-16T10:19:49.454-08:002011-11-16T10:19:49.454-08:00"This is the coin".
yes, I know, I saw ...<i>"This is the coin"</i>. <br />yes, I know, I saw it on your blog.<br /><br /><i>"It was listed on eBay India and legal for anyone to buy"</i> Whether or not it was "legal for anyone to buy" rather depends on a number of factors. Certainly (like it or not) not legal to export in the circumstances you describe.<br /><br />But then the whole point I am making is the DIFFERENCE between what is ethical and that which is merely legal (or not illegal). <br /><br /><br /><i>"I had it shipped out of India and documented it for all to see. Are you suggesting it would have been better to let an Indian citizen buy the coin?",</i> <br /><br />Are you suggesting it is in some way benefical that it was "saved" from being bought by an "Indian citizen", even at the cost of being involved with a smuggled archaeological artefact? How so? <br /><br />No, I don't think a plaque or thanks are in order here. <br /><br />As for "Target on a high profile blog", my target here is discussing all aspects of the collecting of portable antiquities which includes the antiquities trade, it includes smuggling of artefacts, and includes ethics among collectors. <br /><br />I suppose I could make it all up, just generalise (you know, "all collectors have two heads, beat their wives, and eat babies" sort of stuff), but that's not really as believable as taking a case discussed on the internet (so people can check out that the things I say are said actually were said and in what context) and expressing a view on what I see and read. What is wrong with that? <br /><br />I do not just write about ACCG "officials". While they are the ones blogging the most stupid stuff one can find on portable antiquities issues on the Internet, they get a lot of attention, but when something else catches my eye, I talk about that too. <br /><br />Remember, it is the passivity and acquiescence and ease of manipulation of the "lowly ACCG members" that lets the ACCG "Leaders" get away with what they do. Stand up to them. <br /><br />I would have thought that since it is a "guild" FOR collectors, perhaps instead of looking what the dealers have anonymously written for you, collectors (responsible collectors, those trying to be responsible) should be getting together and writing it yourselves.<br /><br />If I were a collector and writing a code of ethics, it certainly would not leave wriggle room for <br />illegal activity like the ACCG one does. Would you? Or is that me being in "Wolkenkuckucksheim" thinking that such a thing might be possible among collectors of the 21st century? <br /><br />Ed, I have always put you at one end of the coiney spectrum, where you have in my estimation very few fellows. I was a bit disappointed to read what I read from you today, but no particular offence was meant by my taking it up. I assumed you had written about this case on the discussion list to start a discussion about it.Paul Barfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10443302899233809948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8174756573570334952.post-63344299597101163672011-11-16T07:55:28.702-08:002011-11-16T07:55:28.702-08:00This is the coin. It was listed on eBay India and...<a href="http://digitalhn.blogspot.com/2011/09/badly-tooled-kushan-coin.html" rel="nofollow">This</a> is the coin. It was listed on eBay India and legal for anyone to buy. This damaged slug sold for my opening bid -- literally the equivalent of two cents. I had it shipped out of India and documented it for all to see.<br /><br />Are you suggesting it would have been better to let an Indian citizen buy the coin? How is that a better outcome? I would be happy to give it to the Indian Antiquities bureau in exchange for a plaque or certificate thanking me; can you set that up?<br /><br />I am disappointed to find myself a target on your high profile blog. I had thought you only targeted ACCG officials. I am the lowliest kind of ACCG member. Please next time you write an editorial condemning me can you at least email me with a warning?Ed Sniblehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17346392312959087285noreply@blogger.com