Friday 23rd November 2018 to Tuesday 28th November 2018: Ancient Art, Antiquities and Coins
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Posted on You Tube by Timeline Auctions Ltd 30th October 2018
They are already taking consignments for their February 2019 auction, so if you've got any 'Anonymous Dead Dad' stuff kicking around the house, here's an opportunity to make a quick quid or two. Have a look at the video and you can see they are not really all that fussy about what they take... They've got experts in who'll vouch for all the items you see here are authentic antiquities, and who are we to express any doubts as they flick past? But what about the paperwork? Eh? A lot of the 'collecting histories' are of the 'property of a [place] gentleman, collected [safe-sounding date]' formula - with zero indication that there are any documents to back that up in the vast majority of cases, which rather suggests that they do not ask their suppliers to provide any.
This Bulgarian fake lamp is certainly common enough today but since I cannot recall them appearing on the market until the last ten years or so, I have to wonder how it managed to be "acquired in the late 1960s-early 1970s" as stated in its provenance.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to be less a matter of TimeLine and more a matter of time travel.
Timeline Auctions have Brian Gilmour as their Specialist on Arms and Armour, his 'specialty' is cutting large V sections from the blades of ancient swords, just below the guards, to 'test' if they are original, he then tries to hid the irreparable damage with filler and black paint, two such were lots 0456 and 0457 in their sale of May this year.However 'No Mention' was made of the said irreparable damage in the descriptions of these two swords or in the photos shown of them, those shown were 'before' Gilmour got to work. It is very worrying to view Timeline Auctions video of him - 'Dr Brian Gilmour Seminar May 2017 Scientific Investigations of Arms and Armour', Gilmour rambles on for over 40 minutes proving quite clearly that he knows very little about his specialist subject of Arms and Armour. if his knowledge of this is so Awful, what of his 'scientific tests'?
ReplyDeleteI have left comments on this video pointing out 'some' of 'Gilmours Gaffs' but these are quickly deleted by Timeline Auctions. I have written to Brett Hammond twice about Gilmours destructive tests and why the damage is never disclosed to potential buyers, he has not answered these questions.
Gilmour also 'tested' 15 other high value lots in the sale of May this year, No Mention was made of any irreparable damage done to these either, I can only hope it was not so bad as that done to lots 0456 and 0457. This awful practice has been going on for some time and I have been in contact with two collectors who have bought 'Viking Age' swords from Timeline Auctions, they were aware of Gilmour doing a report on them but 'not' of the irreparable damage he had done in the process! I suggested they should clear the dark patch on the blades just below the guards. They were shocked to find large V sections cut out making their swords worth far less than they were worth 'before' Gilmours Tests.
The other thing that puzzles me is that of the very many 'questionable' lots sold by Timeline Auctions, None of These are Ever tested???
Jamie Corrigan
Do the buyers get a copy of Gilmour's reports for their records? I'd like to see one. What kind of evidence does he collect from these chunks that cannot be obtained by less destructive means? I wonder what's going on here? Weird.
ReplyDeleteAnd how dishonest that comments discussing these issues are deleted. But that is typical of the antiquities market in general... built on half-truths a lot of it.
Hi Paul,
ReplyDeleteYes the buyers do get a copy of these 'Test Reports' I myself have never seen one, but one of the buyers of a 'Viking Age' sword I contacted to tell him to have a good look at his sword and clear away the black paint and filler, told me he does not think much to the value of the report he received. But whatever its content it does not take away the irreparable damage done by cutting a large V section from the blade. I have spoken to someone who knows a lot about 'testing' ancient metals and he told me Gilmours methods are unnecessary as there are far better ways to test than cutting large pieces from the object. As to Timeline deleting comments on their videos on YouTube, I have been through them - there are a lot - but strangely hardly any comments!!!
Perhaps they think if they 'Ignore The Truth' it will just go away.
Thank You for posting my comment.
Best, Jamie
Hi Paul,
ReplyDeleteI write again to express a deep concern as to Timeline Auctions and their Arms and Armour Specialist Brian Gilmour.
Timeline Auctions stress that the objects they sell are passed by their team of experts including Gilmour. Yet, a very large number of Viking Age axe heads, Viking Age spear heads as well as Scythian swords etc have been sold as genuine and for very large amounts of money.
The 'Problem Is' that all of these very many weapons have the very same patina and pitting, even though the artifacts span several centuries and cultures, and were, we must assume found at different times and locations.
Not only do all of these 'objects' have the very same patina and pitting, but they all mostly share the very same source, ''From the family collections of a South East London collector, acquired in the late 1950s''
This has been going on for some considerable time and I here list some of these lots from their current sale of September 2019, lots 0447 - 0448 - 0464 - 0465 - 0466 - 0467 - 0468 - 0469 - 0470 - 0471 - 2433 - 2439 - 2445 - 2473 - 2495 - 2508 - 2525 there are more. if anyone looks thru their previous sales they will find the same type of 'objects' all with the very same patina and pitting.
Perhaps Mr Gilmour could explain all of this???
Jamie Corrigan
I have had big problems with Gilmour test`s, no answer my e-mails for an explanation. Exspensive cost to have Items repaired after terrible damage.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry to hear that you have had this awful experience in dealing with Gilmour and Timeline Auctions. You are certainly not alone in this!!!
ReplyDeleteTimeline Auctions Presentations are run on similar lines to a Three Ring Circus, lots of Razzle Dazzle, champagne receptions and auctioneers who are mostly into performance acting, the Real Substance is Very Different.
Jamie Corrigan
Dear all,
ReplyDeleteI guess that each one has different experiences with Timeline Auctions. Here is mine.
Years ago I purchased a roman lock plate with a nice mount. A face with a phrigian hat.Months later Timeline auctions sold anothet lock plate with an identical mount. And then, in eBay, I saw two other plates with... Same mounts. The mounts were not similar, they were identical.
I contacted Timeline, explaining the fishy situation. The denied everything. They even suggested that maybe all plates came from the same roman locksmith workshop.... Just when I mentioned that I will Contact the UK antiquities association, they accepted to return the pieces.
During years I receive their nice catalogues. And checking among their thousands of pieces possible fakes became almost a Game. Galley broochs, roman hasps with a wolf head, a medallón with a Horse head, etc... Typical fake items auctioned many times.
I believe that they have no time to check everytime and when you auction thousands of items, this could happend.
Br
Hi Pedro,
ReplyDeleteVery glad that Timeline gave you a refund on the 'Roman Lock Plate' I thought it Very Funny when they suggested that maybe all of these identical lock plates came from the same 'Roman Work Shop' enough to make a Cat Laugh!!! But to be fair they 'Did' all probably come from the same 'Work Shop' just not a Roman one.
I wonder which 'Work Shop' all of the very many iron 'objects' came from which I listed in a previous comment???
But you are quite right to say that 'No One' can get it right all of the Timeline.
Just as well they 'stress' in Clause 14 in their terms and conditions that
'' ------ Timeline Does Not Undertake Any Duty Of Care etc, etc''
Not a phrase to inspire much Confidence or Trust???
Best Wishes, Jamie Corrigan
I think that is the problem with all dealers that sell ungrounded items with no paperwork. The more I see of the market, the more I am surprised by the gullibility of the people that (obviously) do buy these things, and the less surprised i am to see how the dealers need it to expand, to lure in those who've not yet got wise to the problems.
ReplyDeleteHi Paul,
ReplyDeleteYes you are Right, but I believe any Professional Auctioneers 'DO' owe their customers 'A Duty of Care' if only to show that they place Value on their Own Reputation.
To sell a huge number of suspect objects for tens of thousands of pounds and which 'All' share the very same provenance has a certain smell about it.
I have seen this going on for several years and used to think ''Well it is none of my Business'' but I now believe it is Everyone's Business.
Thank Goodness for sites like yours where these issues can be aired.
Best, Jamie Corrigan
A comment I left on Mr Gilmours video for Timeline Auctions which they quickly deleted.
ReplyDeleteThere are so many errors in Mr Gilmours monologue that I felt I should mention some more.
At 13.30 Gilmour talks of The Spear Of Destiny, this is kept in The Imperial Treasury at The Hofburg Palace in Vienna, it has a Fully Documented History, far too much to mention here, but well worth looking up if you are as Totally Unfamiliar with it as Mr Gilmour.
Gilmour says '' This is a typical, well it's not a typical thing. --- It's, It's, It, It, It, you could probably describe it as a Joke really in a way. It is known as The Spear Of Destiny --- When you look at it, if you're an archaeologist and used to looking at these sequences you wouldn't, you wouldn't give it 5 seconds, it's an absurdity in a way because it's the wrong shape for a spear, a real one, ahm the sockets much too short''
Gilmour seems to imagine that 'the socket' of this 'spear head' is just the short piece below the wings, when in fact the socket of this and all such other spear heads goes up into the body of the spear head for about 10.5 cm.
So, sorry Mr Gilmour this Is A Real Spear Head.
So we may ask, what is it??? Is it --- ''A Joke Really'' that you ''Would Not give 5 seconds'' Or is it a Rare treasure from The Early Middle Ages which shows us how people then viewed religious Relics, even those knocked up by some unscrupulous monks to please their Rulers.The fact is we can learn much from such Rare Artifacts as The Spear Of Destiny, so Mr Gilmour it is not a Joke, Not a Joke At All.
Thank Goodness that Gilmour will never be called upon to authenticate The Spear Of Destiny with the type of destructive tests he practices on rare artifacts given into the care of Timeline Auctions. Gilmours 'tests' involve cutting large pieces from the artifacts so causing Irreparable Damage, he then hides this damage with filler and paint. No Mention of this damage is given.
If Mr Gilmour or Timeline Auctions would care to reply I should welcome it, as there is So Much More to say.
Jamie Corrigan
As I said this comment like all others was deleted without a word in reply.
Another comment I left on Gilmours video which Timeline Auctions deleted without reply.
ReplyDeleteMr Gilmours knowledge of his Specialist Subject of Arms and Armour seems Monumental by its Absence!!!
He talks of the serious problem of fake helmets of 'The Norman Period' this in itself is very misleading, 'The Norman Period'is taken to begin in the 10th century and end in the mid 12th century 'in England'.
However Mr Gilmour seems to think of any helmet with a nasal bar to be 'Norman' due to the appearance of such helmets in The Bayeux Tapestry??? However such helmets cover a much larger timeline than 'The Norman Period'. In reality from the 9th century to the mid 13th century as seen in The Maciejowski Bible. Yet Gilmour states of such Early Medieval Helmets
''Almost Nothing Like This Survives! There is a crushed one I think, oh I forget where, it may even be in Prague Museum''.
Mr Gilmour seems to be referring to The World Famous Helmet of Saint Wenceslaus who died in 935, and which is held in The Treasury of Prague Cathedral.
This helmet does indeed date to the last part of the 9th century and in no way could be described as 'Norman'. Nor 'thankfully' is it 'Crushed' as Gilmour seems to imagine!!! Gilmour also seems to be Totally Unaware of a number of other Early Medieval Helmets of the type 'he' would describe as 'Norman' which are held in a number of museums, these helmets are all fully documented and without doubt Original!!! They are all well known so I shall not trouble to list them here.
Mr Gilmours knowledge of his Specialist Subject seems somewhat lacking.
For a company such as Timeline Auctions to employ Gilmour as a specialist on this subject is worrying enough, but at the end of his monologue he makes it clear that 'He' has The Final Word over some of the other Experts!!!
Mathew 15.14 comes to mind.
Hi Paul, I am sorry, but I neglected to Sign my last comment, so I do it now ------ Jamie Corrigan.
ReplyDeleteAs I have said Mr Gilmours video for Timeline Auctions is so full of mistakes and wrong information that it is Truly Amazing, I have been thru it word by word and subject by subject, it was 'Tedious in The Extreme' but I can now show the compass of Gilmours Gaffs!!!
The Fact that he plainly had time to prepare his Monologue makes it all the more damming! If Brett Hammond had just grabbed Gilmour as he was on his way to the gents and pushed him on stage you could sympathize with his position! But it is quite plain that 'Much Effort' went into Gilmours performance on their video.
I myself have given talks both here in England and in many places around Europe and I know too well that Preparation Is The Key! No matter how familiar you may be with the subject in hand it is wise to check and double check everything.
But I suppose if you are as unfamiliar with your Specialist Subject as Mr Gilmour, you really should try to avoid 'Exposing Yourself'in any video that will go On Line.
I could write much more of Gilmour and his video for Timeline Auctions, but I think I will restrain myself!!! As I am not into 'Blood Sports' and the video is there for others to judge for themselves.
Jamie Corrigan
Hi Paul,
ReplyDeleteTimeline Auctions sale for November/December 2019 in which ''The Family Collections of a South East London Collector'' appear again! Very Many 'Iron Objects' all having the very same Patina and Pitting yet dated over several hundred years.
Lots 0425, 0433, 0434, 0435, 0436, 0437, 0438, 0439, 0440, 0441, 0442, 0462, 0465. In total on top estimates 13,700 pounds worth of 'Iron Objects' the last two, lots 0462 and 0465 described as 10th and 12th century swords. However, of the other 17 'Viking Age, Early Medieval Swords' in this sale we can see that these all benefit from an academic report by Dr Raffaele D'Amato. We can only 'Wonder Why' Dr D'Amato has not given his views on lots 0462 and 0465? A Strange Omission.
It is good to see that 'Gilmour' has not been let loose on any of the swords in this sale to perform his Archaic And Destructive Tests, this at least shows progress.Sadly he has been allowed to make his tests on a handful of other lots in this sale, for which we can only Worry And Wonder!
Jamie Corrigan
Jamie, I think you are right to be suspicious of that stuff that an anonymous collector in South London collected and then sold as authentic 'Viking' artefacts, there is clearly something wrong with a number of them - is that why there is no expert report cited?
ReplyDeleteI think the facility with which Timeline continues to acquire material like this and feels not compelled to say anything much about (a) where they actually come from, and (b) why they look like they do at the time of sale and (c) why they identify them as what they say they are, are grounds for concern. Are any laws being broken here? What about the ethics of all this nonsense?
"the very same Patina and Pitting yet dated over several hundred years" and indeed ascribed by the seller to 'cultures' that inhabited different ecological zones - and so soil burial conditions will vary, and yet these disparate objects all "happen to have" the same corrosion type preferred by this "South London Collector".
ReplyDeleteHi again Paul,
ReplyDeleteYes, it is very worrying, in over 50 years of being deeply interested in ancient weapons and having worked at Whitby Museum in North Yorkshire for several years as curator of Ethnography, during which time I cataloged that entire collection of thousands of objects; I have to say I have 'Never' seen a collection of excavated iron artifacts which all share the very same patina and pitting!
You can often find 'bronze' artifacts which have this appearance, but 'Iron' rusts and decays in a totally different manner, in fact the two sides of the same object can often have very different corrosion due to how it has lain in the ground. Of course there is also the issue of 'the ground' an artifact can be well preserved in one area, and yet a short distance away it can be another story.
Perhaps 'The South East London Collector' knows far more about the corrosion and of the ways to treat and stabilize ancient iron artifacts than the rest of us put together? If so, I should be glad to be 'Enlightened' in this matter.
Of course, the 'Experts' at Timeline Auctions lead by Brian Gilmour their 'Specialist in Arms and Armour' have been authenticating these 'Iron Objects' for quite sometime and selling them for ''Many Tens Of Thousands Of Pounds'' so can we blame The South East London Collector when he submits these things for sale and is assured by 'The Experts' that all is in order.
If we were just talking about the rubbish which is sold on Ebay as 'real' for a few pounds it would not matter so much. But we are talking 'Huge' sums of money which Timeline Auctions customers are investing in these 'Iron Objects'. Is their investment secure? Or will Timeline, in the fullness of time, simply refer them to clause 14 in their terms and conditions.
Jamie Corrigan
Wonder Of Wonders!!! On looking again thru their lots this morning Dr D'Amato has 'now' Given a Report on lot 0465, so too has Gilmour. Do you think Timeline Auctions read these posts? However 'Nothing Yet' on lot 0462. Perhaps Gilmour is busy with his cutting tool as we speak.They should also give their views 'in writing' on lots 0433, 0434, 0435, 0436, 0437, 0438, 0439, 0440 and 0441 while they feel in the mood.
ReplyDeleteOver the last couple of sales I have been taking an interest in Timeline Auctions 'Marbles' one lot really caught my eye in their sale November/December 2019.
Lot 0115 Roman Marble Hand. I really think Timeline should buy this themselves, it would make a Wonderful Company Logo.
Jamie Corrigan
Jamie, I've done a post on the 2019 auction, you can repost anything you want to say about those iron objects there... (they are weird), I also highlight a few things, but really large number of items there are really question-worthy. As for marbles, I was 'interested' in the marble foot in a sandal.
ReplyDeleteThank You Paul, best J.C.
ReplyDelete