Vases and Respect: AI Gives some Advice to Lost Sensation-Seekers

           Where is the real issue in measuring         
             collectors' vases?         

On Christmas Day, one " WIZZARD @DrunkenWIZZARD" in Massachusetts in a comment on a link to a Graham Hancock interview expresses distrust in "politicians and main stream (sic) media", and asserts:

Academia and 'experts' no longer matter with the likes of [Jimmy Corsetti ], Graham, Randall Carlson, Ben van Kerkwyk(unchartedx), Snake Bros and others I can't think of off top of my head. I refuse to believe what academia says is truth..

They then go on to explain what they themselves do on the shop floor with cutting tools and conclude "look at the vases that Ben brings up on UnchartedX that has (sic) similar tolerances to what I need to hold.. only machines can do this.. otherwise prove hand tools can do this". A number of archaeologists courteously explained some of what thius guy considers to be "mysteries": (to him) and answered his questions, until he started cussing and ranting about his hatred for the world in general and the "doctors" who "nearly killed my Dad, so I don't trust experts" and "you're sore Trump won", at which point I guess there was no point in further discussion.

I fed what they wrote into ChatGPT and asked it why this person is angry with /dismissive of archaeology. Here's what Chat GPT says:

"If someone from a manual labor or technical background wishes to critique archaeology — or any discipline — it's only fair and courteous that they first make an effort to understand what professionals in that field actually claim. This aligns with the principle of engaging with an argument in good faith and based on accurate information.

For example:

Start with the Basics:
They should seek out introductory texts or accessible summaries of archaeological findings related to the topic they're interested in (e.g., the production of stone vessels). A basic understanding of archaeological methods and the kinds of physical evidence archaeologists rely on would prevent misconceptions. This would explain why any evidence of lathe-turning on excavated examples of such vessels would not be confused by the archaeological specialist with those formed by any other means or tools.

Look for Scholarly Sources:
Instead of relying on alternative history channels or social media commentary, they could explore peer-reviewed articles or authoritative books. Archaeologists have written extensively about ancient technologies, including the use of lathes and other tools. Such material is available online, in bookshops and good libraries (for example by inter-library loan).

Ask Questions, Not Accusations:
If they're unsure how archaeologists explain certain phenomena, asking questions—rather than starting with assumptions that academics are wrong or hiding something—would foster constructive dialogue.

Recognize the Breadth of the Discipline:
Archaeology encompasses far more than tool-making. The absence of detailed discussions about certain technical aspects doesn't mean they're being ignored—it may simply reflect the broader focus on cultural and societal contexts. Respect Expertise:
Just as they would expect respect for their hands-on knowledge, they should extend the same to archaeologists who dedicate years to studying ancient civilizations and interpreting evidence in its full complexity.

By investing time in understanding what archaeologists actually say, these individuals could not only avoid mischaracterizations but also contribute valuable insights through a respectful exchange of ideas. It's a matter of both intellectual curiosity and common courtesy.

I really do not see why we should somehow feel we have to provide people like this information on a plate with lashings of ketchup and mayo. If they want to form a judgement on something they shoud first find out about that subject, because if not they run the risk of saying somerthing that looks stupid to somebody that, for example does know the difference between quart and calcite and would not use them as interchangeable terms. Duh.

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Christmas Greetings 2024

Скорботна Мати Божа - 2024 -والدة إله الأحزان  -  2024 

This has not been a good year for many of us, with shocking, distressing and worrying events unfolding all around us, often evoking feelings of helplessness and reflecting a collapse of a lot that we take for granted. Others, individuals, communities, have been affected by much much worse, sometimes we see their drama, many more times we cannot. We can only place our trust in the knowledge that  all this too shall pass. Amid the tumult, we cling to the hope that these sorrows are fleeting and draw strength from the enduring and unchanging.  

Merry Christmas to all my readers, wherever you are and as this one draws painfully to its end, here's hoping for a better New Year to come for all of us.
 

New Map of the Coin Hoards of the Roman Empire

The distribution of Roman coins (in orange here) throughout the world, according to the Oxford University project that began in 2014 and records nearly 15,000 Roman monetary deposits (6 million coins).  The coin hoards of the Roman Empire 

"Those Vases" Again: A Collector Still Dreams But Looks in the Wrong Places

The serial "Ancient Egyptian" hardstone vase buyer from the USA is still at it:

Matt Beall @MattbLimitless
I wrote [to] Thomas Haddy, perhaps the world’s top modern stone vessel maker and offered to pay him to recreate some ancient Egyptian Stone Vessels. He replied and let me know that he would need to upgrade to diamond tipped tools, and he wasn’t sure if it could be done at all. 

 

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He's blocked me from replying, so I cannot respond to this there, but that's probably not a loss he feels as he has lots of layman followers who are very happy to share their ideas with him. Note some of the hostility directed towards archaeologists and Egyptologists here:

hazmatpackrat @hazmatpackrat · 2h
I love this Matt. It sinks a knife deep into to the phony nonarguments against ancient tech. They wasted a lot of words when the ultimate rebuttal for the naysayers is simply to recreate one of these incredible vases. And yet, they just can't seem to do it.

Be Expert International @Be_Expert_Int · 38m
It's man-made stone like alabaster or cement. Search cultured stone. They didn't move the massive blocks 100s of km up and down mountains. They made the stone like concrete. It's not a mystery.

jbschirtzinger @jbschirtzinger · 2h
Clearly the technology is lacking in understanding something that was to the ancient world rather simple..

X marks the Truth @Xmarksthetruth · 3h
Just these little vases should be enough to eradicate all ancient Egyptian archaeological theories.
They are a marvel.... and a mystery!.

DavidLiberty @Davidliberty002 · 3h
Maybe Thomas should talk to some Egyptologists. They know exactly how to carve these vases with a stick and some flint. They’ve told us it’s easy peasy. I’d love to hear one explain this theory to Thomas directly. 😂

Exwarito @ExwaritoWC · 4h
Ahahahahahahahahahahaha! He should get some diamond-tipped bronze chisels and some diamond-tipped dolorite pounding rocks.

Note (1), as far as I was aware before he blocked me, there is not a single precision-lathed vessel in the Beall collection that had an incontrovertible origin in a sealed archaeological context. All are items from the collectors' market. As such they are not incontrovertibly authentic/ancient. Source criticism (data hygeine) should therefore eliminate them from any discussion on ancient technology.

(2) If he wants to know how they were made why go to some artist with "four years experience" from Grass Valley, California, USA? Seems a bit pointless to me. What he needs to do is go to the places where they turn out knockoff "antiquities" of hardstone. Thailand would be a good place to start. There are workshops there turning out well-made (but often stylistically 'off') "antiquities" for the international online market. Some of them have been turning up in galleries (oh yes). Most of the workshps seem to be in Bangkok (?) and they fake material of various cultures of the ancient world - or the Eurasian part of it, including ancient Greece, Rome and Egypt. There are Pakistani workshops, but they mainly stick to Gandhara - some quite good. In Mainland China there are a bunch of "antiquities" workshops down south that produce jade and 'jade' "antiquities" (including patinated "archaeological" examples) - in Guangzhou especially [there are also workshops here that do deceptive bronzes, but their main fake output is highly dangerous for the unwary western collector, "rare porcelain"]. There are also stoneworking ('jade' and crystal) workshops further north (Beijing etc) that among other things seem to be responsible for the amusing series of "Hong-Shan artefacts" (gotta love them). In Mr Beall's place, I'd not overlook the backstreets of Cairo. My feeling is that Bulgaria/Balkan workshops would not be up to them, the Middle Eastern ones I've seen are generally clumsy and made without understanding the theme. These are probably not the sort of things that would be made by the Ukrainian or Turkish workshops either. 

(3) All this nonsense about diamond-tipped tools sounds a bit of a fob-off to me. None of the minerals in the rocks these vases (ancient and not-so-ancient) are that hard. Also I wonder whether there is just a little too much thinking inside the box going on here. A lathe is not only a cutting tool, but a grinding one. I am thinking that a cutting tool will potentially rip grains out (for example a harder quartz grain next to a feldspar or mica) unless there is a lot of control of rotation and cutting rates. Grinding however (when there is a multiple number of almost-microscopic cutting edges applied evenly to the surface) would produce a greater effect. Here the abrasive agencies would be a bonded abrasive mass composed of: a ceramic such as silicon carbide (carborundum); aluminium oxide (corundum); and CBN (cubic boron nitride). These would not leave any metallic traces on the cut stone (which I know the vase-fondlers have been looking for and failing to find - they think it disproves the "copper chisel" [straw man] argument of their own invention.

[As a side-note: I do wonder whether the surfaces of a rotating object could be reduced faster, but with no loss of quality, by bringing into contact with it a broad abrasive wheel or sphere of artificial abrasive rotating at high speed (either in the same direction as its rotation or against it). But that is not something I have ever seen done, so do not know if it is in any way realistic as a method for the faker. I do not think my neighbours would appreciate me trying it in the garage with a high-speed drill. I bet Mr Beall has a bigger garage than me to try].

"Middle Class Elitist Pursuits" Like Museums Face Cutbacks in Ever-Dumber Britain [Updated]

I expect the Portable Antiquities Scheme forum will be buzzing about this one 

All those metal detectorists will be livid as it will hinder their "research" on the original documents in their pursuit of knowledge about the past. Still, there is a phone app. 

Update 2612.2024
David Maddox , Jabed Ahmed 'Hundreds of theatres and museums face closure as crisis in sectors laid bare ' Independent Thursday 26 December 2024. So what's the point of ripping up the archaeological record to produce gawpworthy artefacts "for museums" if in Britain the latter thgemselves are disappearing and there will be nowhere to keep the artefacts? Bonkers Britain.

UK Metal Detecting Permit "was an Error"

[Pipeline News] A group of artefact hunters called the "Troops Detecting Club UK" (354 members) has obtained a seach-and-take agreement to hold a commercial artefact hunting rally on the site of a former 1930s air base in South Cerney, Gloucestershire (the Duke of Gloucester Barracks). The UK Ministry of Defence was taken by surprise on learning the news and confirmed that its policy has not changed and that metal detecting is not permitted on Ministry of Defence land except in highly controlled circumstances. The Ministry of Defence aditted: "this event was permitted in error and has now been cancelled". The UK's Ministry of Defence made an error?

Just a Reminder There is a Destructive Elephant in this Room

Just a reminder, a counter for England and Wales that I set up with a late colleague as long ago as 2006 has been ticking away under "metal detecting"s supporters' noses ever since. Today the number of looted objects is 12,931,897 items (twelve MILLION) since the beginning of the Portable Antiquities Scheme (who conspicuously ignore it and its implications for the archaeological record). @findsorguk

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You can go Treasure Hunting with Grok

 Who is surprised by the thought-provoking number of comments on this video by (a) the Portable Antiquities Scheme or any other archaeological body, and (b) the many (allegedly) "[archaeologically] responsible detectorists" out there? .

Metal Detecting Adventures In Lost pic.twitter.com/2K6BA7eSoV

— Treasure Valley Metal Detecting Club (@TVMDClub) December 15, 2024

Posted on Twitter by Treasure Valley Metal Detecting Club @TVMDClub​ Dec 15th 024

.TVMDClub: "We are a group of detectorists committed to promoting the hobby of metal detecting through education and implementation. Join us in our adventures. Boise, ID". Most of the posts are AI-generated and are under the name Jason Smith (allegedly another claiming to be an ex-Marine, a lot of them about in the alt-hist community). Site has no real content, all AI-generated fluff, possibly a disinformation troll account.

The regime of Bashar al-Assad has fallen in Syria

 

The group Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham has taken control of Damascus, the Syrian capital.Reports indicate Syrian soldiers have fled across the border, seeking refuge in Iraq. Gunfire is heard in the streets, and prisoners are being released from jails. Syrian Prime Minister Mohammed al-Jalali stated that he is ready to cooperate with any leadership chosen by the people. This is a fitting end to Bashar al-Assad's 24-year reign of power, which was truly filled with only the worst. Now, the region faces uncertainty. Will this mark the end of an era or the start of greater turmoil?An IL-76 aircraft, reportedly carrying Bashar al-Assad, has disappeared from radar. Local media suggest it may have crashed, but this information has not been confirmed yet.

Also unconfirmed reports claim that the Israeli Defense Force has launched a ground operation into Syria's Quneitra Province, deploying tanks and armored vehicles from the Golan Heights. Israel characterizes this military action as a measure to bolster border defenses in response to regional instability.

Syria: Sites like Palmyra and Dura-Europos need urgent protection

Adnan ALMOHAMAD @Adnan77227624

 

Syria at the Moment

The situation on the ground in Syria is changing daily. Assad's whereabouts are disputed, the rebels are moving south taking more and more territory. The Russians are on the run too.*  For the fourth consecutive day, hundreds of individuals, including members of the Alawite, Ismaili, Yazidi, Circassian and Armenian minorities, as well as some Sunni Muslims, continued to try to leave the Aleppo region. There are persistent reports of disappearances, Local sources alleged that these disappearances were the result of targeted executions conducted by HTS, based on pre-compiled lists. 

It looks like much of the country will soon be under the control of the Sunni Islamist militants of Hay'at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS), their leader Abu Mohammed al-Joulani proclaims that when they've finished off the Assad regime, they will establish a government based on a people’s council, whatever that will mean for the country and its people. It is worth noting that HTS has Al-Qaeda roots and is still on the US terror list (but has been trying to gain legitimacy using for example a modified 'antiquities' policy that it feels the West will like - as reported here some months ago).

Over to the west is also the Syrian National Army (SNA): A coalition of armed rebel groups, including the Free Syrian Army, Ahrar al-Sham, and the Levant Front (it's worth noting that the Syrian free army is made up partially of Kurds).  Supported by Turkey, the SNA controls areas in northwestern Syria and has participated in recent offensives alongside HTS.

Meanwhile Assad's regime forces seem to have abandoned large areas of southern and south-central Syria (in fact part of this area is simply empty desert).

From Twitter.

The is still around Homs, 160 kms from Damascus.  At the same time, rebel groups from the south are already much closer to the capital. These more moderate rebel groups (supported by Jordan, US) are are not HTS but a mix of rebel groups, a coalition of various armed Druze tribes and Syrian opposition groups operating in southern Syria, particularly in the Daraa, Suwayda and Tanf regions. In order to take advantage of the situation, they have now (from Dec 6th 2024) formally organized into the so-called "Southern Operations Room (SOR)" who is coordinating offensives in the south, capturing cities like Daraa and advancing towards Damascus. As Jenan Moussa @jenanmoussa points out:

Traditionally, rebel groups in the south near Jordan were less influenced by extremist groups such as Nusra, HTS or ISIS. This because Jordan -contrary to Turkey- kept its borders with Syria closed and did not allow foreign fighters to sneak into Syrian opposition territories. [...] So who will reach Damascus first? Groups from the north or from the south? And are both groups coordinating operations or not? If not, will there be a stand-off possibly leading to a Libya scenario whereby the country gets carved up by different rebel groups and backers?

Apart for the humanitarian issues, what effect will that have on the protection of cultural property in the region?

*In December 2017, Putin flew to Syria with the message: "If the terrorists raise their heads again, we will strike them [from the Russian bases in Syria] in a way that they have not yet seen." Today, the Russian army is evacuating from Tartus and Khmeimim and fleeing Syria. It is difficult to over estimate what a massive strategic blow and internationally recognised humiliation this is for Russia. It is possibly their biggest total defeat since Afghanistan.

Cumbrian Treasure find reports drop by over 20 per cent

         Cumbrian MD at it        

Ollie Rawlinson 'Cumbrian treasure find reports drop by over 20 per cent' NWEMail 1 Dec 2024.

Bad show from the detectorists up North, either they are finding less because they've knackered almost all of the accessible sites (destructive blighters), or they are keeping more without reporting it (thieving blighters). Which is it? 

Provisional data from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport shows  1,358 treasure finds were reported in England and Wales in 2023, down slightly from 1,367 the previous year but the second-highest figure since records began in 1996. Last year was also the tenth in a row where treasure discoveries across the two countries exceeded 1,000. In Cumbria, 18 treasure finds were reported in 2023, down from 23 the year before. [...]
Keith Westcott, CEO and founder of the Detectorists Institute and Foundation, said the significant number of treasure finds reported last year highlights the "critical importance" of ensuring artefacts are retrieved in a sustainable way and that their heritage is preserved.

That's bonkers. How on earth can taking from a finite resource be in any way sustainable? How much heritage is preserved when most don't have the knowledge to identify finds in situ (that's besides any loss of context by the use of their standard method of hoiking)? Britain has lost the plot.