There are a lot of numbers produced, superlatives. The word "primitive" is overused excessively - maybe he should think of a synonym, that does not denigrate or manipulate. It functions as a rhetorical sleight of hand. By slapping that label on the ancient Egyptians (or whoever), he sets up a strawman: “These ‘simple’ folks couldn’t have done this, so… advanced tech from somewhere else!”. It’s a lazy shortcut that dodges the hard work of understanding how they actually did something. The Egyptians were not bumbling primitives waiting for a sci-fi savior.
Mr van Kerkwyk obviously thinks he's being very "objective", "scientific" and "professional", yet alongside his efforts to play that role, there is a lot of arkie-bashing. Of all of us, Flint Dibble once again comes in for ridicule a couple of times (and look at the offensive remarks in the comments below the video) as if Dr Dibble was the only archaeologist who has misgivings about their methodology, data collection and what they are claiming. (no, whatever the outcome of their faffing around with them, these vases will not "rewrite history"!) But Flint Dibble was an archaeologist who tried to engage with the Hancock-Mystery-cultists (and it is a cult). So they want to "punish" him and Ben van Kerkwyk is happy to oblige. I wonder though what kind of collaboration he expects in the future when he has the results he needs.
It's actually difficult to tell from this video-update what those results are. True, he gives links to some other videos with films of guys measuring and talking about vases, both his own and other people. Together they come to an additional 4 hours and 28 minutes and contain a lot of waffle and other redundant material, downtime, "amusing" (puerile) soundbites, but above all repetition. So it is really an effort to plough through them to extract the information that matters. It is this failure in communication that really hinders understanding whether he's come up with anything at all. The time taken to sift out what might matter (below) is just too much and in that case a lot of us are just not going to bother.
So point number one. If he wants people to take this seriously, my suggestion is to produce a monograph (could be a proper publisher or in pdf(etc) format. Each vase they've scanned should be fully documented. Let each have a discrete number. Then each have the following information set out in the same format.
Present owner,That way we could sort the wheat (if there is any) from the chaff. As I and others (including the maligned Dr Dibble) have been saying, data hygeine is of the utmost importance. Most of the vases measured have come from the antiquities market. Some of them have come from dealers that some of us who look at that market consider to be 'dodgy dealers' ... I don't care what it says on a COA or a dealer says, unless there is independen documentation of the claimed collection history the object is ungrounded. Because a maxim to bear in mind is that fully truthful dealers are pretty rare in the Trade, some dealers lie some of the time, other dealers lie all of the time. How can you tell just by looking at them, which is which?
Data hygiene:
Provenance (place found, any details of context),
Collection history (optical = what the dealer says/ what's on the COA),
Collection history documented (checking where any of that at all is independently documented - and if not, stating so).
Dates examined, scanned,
where, by whom, circumstances.
RESULTS (could link to data files held as supporting information in digital form),
comments on accuracy/problems etc of measurements (whether cleaned up or raw etc).
Interpretation.
Recommendations for further work.
Mr van Kerkwyk rather pathetically dodges the 'provenance' (grounding) issue .
of course not Of course, not everybody wants to take this data for what it is, and several people seem to strongly dislike the implications of it. Some have even gone on personal crusades to debunk the findings any way they can. Well, I say "any way they can," but given all the open-source scans and hard data, the only real method that has emerged is to simply yell "fake" on the internet [...] No one is able to argue with the actual data, so it generally boils down to noisily trying to discredit the origins of the artifacts and distract the audience from the significance of the findings.('data' are plural). I do not see what the guy can't understand here. A collegue who had a prehistoric flake from Poland struck from an odd green glassy material could not simply go to the Internet to buy a sample of Moldavite for 30 zloties or so to do spectral analysis to confirm her suspicion of the origin of the raw material, all sorts of green glassy materials (including bottle glass) are sold as Moldavite. Getting a verifiable (and legally obtained) bit from the four different strewfields cost her a lot of work and time, but any analysis of a fragment from the market would always be open to challenge - and therefore useless as data. In the same way stone vases of unknown date and provenance cannot be used as a source of data about ancient techniques. Why can't Mr van Kerkwyk grasp that? .
That's essentially what the whole provenance argument is. It’s a fancy word used to suggest that most of these vases are nothing more than modern fakes. A couple of reaction videos have taken this approach, implying that because we don’t know the exact circumstances of when, where, how, and by whom all of these ancient artefacts were extracted from Egypt, they must just be modern fakes—meaning we can ignore all this pesky data and hard facts about precision. There’s so much stupidity in this statement that it’s tough to know where to start.As a keen observer of the antiquities market and collecting, I would say the stupidity is on the side of the utterly gullible and self-deluded buyers who obviously are looking at the market without seeing. Van Kerkwyk continues:
First of all, I don’t think the people making this accusation fully understand how provenance or the antiquities market actually work (sic!) or they’re deliberately misrepresenting it. They seem to act as though any artefact not in a museum, such as one in a private collection, must either be stolen or fake, and on that basis, they try to discredit everything about it. Even Flint Dibble shamefully took this approach. In a discussion about vase analysis with Matt Bealle on Twitter, he petulantly responded by throwing shade on the origins of the artifact, suggesting Matt stop buying looted vasesYep, I think EVERY archaeologist who cares, in talking with any artefact collector SHOULD be urging them to make sure that they are not buying looted artefacts. I don't care if they buy fakes (though will warn them of that too). Then van Kerkwyk forgets he was going to address provenance issues and like a jerk launches another derisively-phrased attack on Dr Flint Dibble ("a sneaky attempt to smear this process", "remember, he studies seeds and foodways in ancient Greece—not the artefacts of ancient Egypt", "so let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he just doesn’t know"). And so on. Then he remembers:
Returning to the provenance topic: [...] Of course, many artefacts do have impeccable provenance. And in a shocking turn of events, the people on the internet yelling “fake” never seem to acknowledge that artefacts with impeccable provenance also exist in private collections. In fact, several such vessels have been analyzed by the VaseScan project. Adam Young owns a large vase dated well into Pre-Dynastic times by carbon-14 analysis of the burial it was found in. It was legitimately given to a Czech ambassador in the 1930s as a gift. People die, estate sales happen, and ultimately, artifacts end up in an auction house and on the market. In this case, it was eventually acquired by Adam.The latter has a Sands of Time COA. I cannot see where it was supposed to have been between 1953 and its acquisition, is there any documentation at all beyond the "optical" collection history? There should be, but Van Kerkwyk does not say. Note how van Kerkwyk quotes the dealer's inferred dates as gospel. Now this Czech ambassador attribution has been TOTALLY misreported by Van Kerkwyk. It is here in the important video by Night Scarab "Impossible Granite Vases in Ancient Egypt?" that would repay watching again in this context (and his later ones; this one, here especially )
Matt Beall also has several vessels with impeccable provenance, and several of those show incredible precision. Take this one, for example — it dates back to 3650–3550 BC. That’s a stone object, essentially perfectly round, over 5,500 years old, predating the lathe by over 2,000 years. It’s made out of serpentine. The provenance is from the Royall Tyler family estate — he lived from 1884 to 1953 and was collecting in the 1920s. And if you measure it? The lip has a deviation of just 1.5 thousandths of an inch between the X and Y axis. That’s super precise, super old, and a truly unique artifact.
"in fact one of the vases in the current collection also comes from very deep Antiquity and has impeccable Providence"Not only that, I find it difficult to understand how a stone object from a context disturbed in the "1800s" could have a C14 date.
" so this one was brought out by The Czechoslovakian Ambassador to Egypt in the late 1800s and provinence is indisputable"
This Provenance is either erroneous or made up. Here's why (one) there had never been a country called Czechoslovakia prior to 1918 historically there was Bohemia today's Czech Republic but in the 1800s it was part of Austria-Hungary, (two) very few ambassadors if any at all were in Egypt in the 1800s. Before the founding of the League of Nations, ambassadors were rare and only sent to major powers. Missions to lesser countries like Egypt in the 1800s were headed by consul's agents Etc. The first Czechoslovakian Consulate in Egypt opened only in 1920 and it became an embassy in 1956. If this provenance story stems from some mistake it has to be corrected. As stated the story can't be true
Excavated Objects
Not unreasonably, I assumed that this update was going to present the results of the recent scanning of the items scanned in the Petrie Museum in London, among which will be 'grounded' ones. Sadly, this is skipped over in a few words, pending the completion of analysis. What we learn is that about half the scanned hardstone vessels (n=??) were "high precision", the rest were not. We await the proper presentation of more details.
Then there is a tantalising bit about some SEM examination of some sherds which produced some loopy results - among them one relating to the fixation these pseudoarchaeologists have with strawman arguments referring to "copper chisels". A sherd of white quartzite vessel (quartzite was VERY rarely used for these Old Kingdom vessels - what would its source have been?) has a groove that van Kerkwyk says "must have been made" by a tubular drill (one of his own fixations - but in fact it does not have to have been) has "no traces of copper". If we go to the video about this after an overlong sluggish padded-out presentation of how a SEM works and "how well qualified the guy working it is" we eventually get the information on these sherds (40:23 - 41:47). It transpires that these too are owned by private collectors and they are said to be "from Saqqara" - presumably looted from the passages under the Step Pyramid, or perhaps "liberated" from the museum store there. So how did these colle3ctors get their hands on them?
1) The ones in private collections, galleries, museums, online that have no independent documentation putting their origins in a particular closed archaeological context cannot be used as "evidence" of anything. It does not matter how may microns they deviate from something else, or whether the ratio between the base diameter and that of the hole going through the lug is pi-to-the-power-of-something, it is not relevant to anything. It is as simple as that. All it means is that somebody somewhere worked out how to turn out these vessels in a wide variety of materials using a machine that had a very stable axis, was rotating powerfully and at the right speed to produce the effect needed. My guess is that instead of a cutting tool, the shaping was done by abrasive material that, when the shape was achieved, was switched for finer grades to get the polish. Possibly this meant that they could be turned out quicker and the process perhaps was more simplified than it would be with a cutting tool. But that's a guess.
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