Wednesday 10 June 2020

PAS's FLO dug a Muddy Hole in Somerset and Called it "Archaeology" [Updated]


In Somerset, a detectorist calling himself "Manic Dev" (Dave baker) found a hoard of Roman coins (The Kingsdon Hoard) in Feb 2013, and has now put online  some "unseen footage" when the FLO turned up to do an excavation (I use the term very loosely), really Manic's own description is more apposite: "The FLO uncover the rest of the coins". But artefact hunters think that, like the FLO's carrier bag at Lenborough, this ad hoc grubbing around in the mud is proper archaeological practice
Steve Wright1 year ago 
Guys, it’s great to see the coins recovered properly by the experts. Too many times we detectorist shoot ourselves in the foot by uploading videos of amateurs clambering and clawing away at hoard finds and throwing all the targets onto a coat or something. We don’t do ourselves any favours with the critics. Great to see and good luck for more discoveries.
To be honest, looking at this fiasco, I do not think the detectorists could have done much worse. Where's the archaeologist's report about the context of this hoard? Have a look at this video (you might want to skip the excruciating first 41 seconds):


 
Manic Finds a ROMAN COIN HOARD Unseen Footage Posted on You Tube by  Detecting Somerset on 9 Nov 2018
 
13,027 views

This awful "how we do it" video showing ill-resourced ad hoc grubbing around in the mud has been seen now by 13000 viewers. In cases like this "better than nothing" should not be an option, neither is "doing it properly" negotiable. If we expect detectorists to always abide by principles of best practice in their handling of the archaeological record, then we need to as well.

UPDATE, 21.06.202
Mr Ferret wrote to me to tell me that he has altered the text under the video, and now states the FLO had nothing to do with the way this hoard was "excavated", I use the term loosely. He reveals the name of the archaeologist, and adds that he was the guy that excavated the Frome Hoard (another keyhole trench) and that indeed the messleft behind was so great that the next time they fond a hoard on the same piece of land, the landowner refused to let the archaeologists onto the farm to dig it properly, so the detectorists hoiked it themselves (I presume the farmer however did not turn up his nose at his share of the proceeds of selling either hoard).



24 comments:

TheFerret said...

Get your facts right buddy the guy recovering the hoard IS the archeologist NOT the FLO. The FLO is also in attendance.

Paul Barford said...

I do not know who the FLO was in 2013, I'm just going by what "Detecting Somerset" said the video shows: "Metal Detecting In Somerset and Manic Finds a ROMAN COIN HOARD Unseen Footage. The FLO uncover the rest of the coins". So if that's factually in=[correct take it up with those responsible. That hole is what we call in the profession "a ruddy big mess" and "travesty of archaeological method". So who was responsible for digging a site in that state?

TheFerret said...

Alan Graham—an independent archaeologist contracted by Somerset County Council He was the archi that uncovered the Frome Hoard in 2010 ;-)

Unknown said...

Stay in Poland you tw@t!

southwestpaw said...

As someone new to Detecting who has never detected anything other than a beach or a park, and who has already donated hours of my free time to detect lost wedding rings, and return them to people, I personally take offence at your ‘tar everyone with the same brush’ approach to Detectorists’.

Your comments ‘the first 41 seconds’ lead me to believe that your issue is far worse, and is routed in prejudice. Having read some of your rather self congratulating posts is painful, but I persevered.

Comparing Archeology to medicine is fine, but can we then extrapolate your own metaphor. Perhaps Detectorists are not surgeons, but something more like, a Radiographer, or a Nurse Practitioner. Enough skill to tell you where to look, but are gracious enough to let you walk in after the event and make the big hole and congratulate yourself.

Your petulant posts and correcting of others grammer is also painful.

Perhaps if you are worried about the loss of antiquities in the UK? Why not return and do your bit? Why not run a workshop or educate others? Instead you provide touchline criticism of others and are offensive in your passive aggressive tone.

Now I’ve only been in this hobby a short time, and if it wasn’t for ‘Detectorists’ and then finding ‘Detecting Somerset’. I’d not be in it. What I have found is an incredibly supportive and friendly group, run by Morley who is supportive and welcoming providing encouragement and a place for people to learn ‘best practice’.

Perhaps look inwards and reflect on why you have such an issue with people enjoying a legal and regulated hobby. I have the feeling that you may need to do more self exploration than exploring of others.

I comment Dev and Morley for what they do. I condemn your preaching, ‘holier than thou’ manner.

A university education is not the be all and end all. It does not make you a ‘better’ or more worthy person.

Paul Barford said...

Ferrety guy, as I said, the author of the video said it shows the FLO in action, and I took him at his word, if the metal detectorist is lying, then what can I do? All I can do is point out that it's not the first time a UK metal detectorist has been caught lying. Mr Graham however had the choice whether to get involved in such a project under such conditions. Many self-respecting archaeologists would not, but I see that this is not covered in the CIfA's 2014 Code of Conduct https://www.archaeologists.net/sites/default/files/CodesofConduct.pdf .

Paul Barford said...

A person calling him or herself "southwestpaw" (sic) wants to tell me what they think of me:
"southwestpaw said...
As someone new to Detecting who has never detected anything other than a beach or a park, and who has already donated hours of my free time to detect lost wedding rings, and return them to people, I personally take offence at your ‘tar everyone with the same brush’ approach to Detectorists’.

Your comments ‘the first 41 seconds’ lead me to believe that your issue is far worse, and is routed in prejudice. Having read some of your rather self congratulating posts is painful, but I persevered.

Comparing Archeology to medicine is fine, but can we then extrapolate your own metaphor. Perhaps Detectorists are not surgeons, but something more like, a Radiographer, or a Nurse Practitioner. Enough skill to tell you where to look, but are gracious enough to let you walk in after the event and make the big hole and congratulate yourself.

Your petulant posts and correcting of others grammer is also painful.

Perhaps if you are worried about the loss of antiquities in the UK? Why not return and do your bit? Why not run a workshop or educate others? Instead you provide touchline criticism of others and are offensive in your passive aggressive tone.

Now I’ve only been in this hobby a short time, and if it wasn’t for ‘Detectorists’ and then finding ‘Detecting Somerset’. I’d not be in it. What I have found is an incredibly supportive and friendly group, run by Morley who is supportive and welcoming providing encouragement and a place for people to learn ‘best practice’.

Perhaps look inwards and reflect on why you have such an issue with people enjoying a legal and regulated hobby. I have the feeling that you may need to do more self exploration than exploring of others.

I comment Dev and Morley for what they do. I condemn your preaching, ‘holier than thou’ manner.

A university education is not the be all and end all. It does not make you a ‘better’ or more worthy person."



Dear "southwestpaw" (is that a real name? Seriously?), thank you for your comments. I rather think you have totally missed the point about the text to which this was a comment. Perhaps you should try reading it again.

PS The word is "rooted" as in "root/at the root".



TheFerret said...

Now corrected in video description. ARCHI'S uncover.. And yes they left a mess and hence why they were not invited back to uncover more....So the next hoard was uncovered and recorded without the Archie's at land owners request...

Paul Barford said...

Mr "Paw", These parks you are detecting in, to whom within the responsible authority does the search and take permission you have with them oblige you to show the finds, and what happens then? Do local authorities just give away assets, or do you pay something (market value) into their funds for anything you take from their property?

southwestpaw said...

Hi Paul,

I'm not actually sure whether my name matters. But if you want it my name is Mr D.R Scott LLB(hons). L.P Dip. You seem to be a stickler for formalities and I can tell we're not on first-name terms yet. I'll wait to see what colour flowers you bring me on our next date. I think it is 'yellow' for friendship.

Sorry about getting one word wrong. As a person with not one but two recognised disabilities including a learning disability (yet I have letters - the shock, the horror). I'll take one mistake. Result. It also leaves a little in there for you, you know to allow you to engage in the mocking of people you a) don't know b) are so prejudiced towards that in any sphere of human existence such as race or religion you'd be committing an offence.

To address your concerns:

Do I have permission to detect in parks? YES! Because the only thing that I was looking for was a lost wedding band. Which would be in or on the surface. Written permission obtained. Mt search parameters set clearly (we are looking for....X, in this case, a wedding ring)....it belonged to X...we would like to search...X and will not break ground unless we have to and if we do it will be reported with location and contents).

In 20+ hours between three detectorists do you know how many 'targets were dug.....ONE The contents.... a mauled tin can'.

During this search, I cleared away a builders bucket of ring pulls from the grass, bottle tops, even a used hypodermic syringe. This was documented and passed back to the council in question who seemed very grateful. Once we had searched it out without finding it, I thanked them for the permission, I rescinded the permission and offered to help if they (the LA) ever needed it).

I have also spent hours searching a shale beach for a lost ring after nearly six hours I located it. The couple were nearly as excited as I was. I even delivered it back to them myself. They seemed very happy with the result. What else did I take? nothing apart from a 20 pence piece. As an hourly rate goes, it isn't great.

Are you aware that Morley runs Lostringsuk? Are you aware that we all do this for free and donate any money or finders fee we are offered to Cystic Fibrosis UK?

Just be kind. Just step-down. Just consider that perhaps we have more in common than you are willing to admit. The time you invest could be used to educate, rather than criticise.

Have you booked that ticket home yet? I'm sure we can rustle up a spare detector between us. You'll find us a very warm and friendly group.

Let the grammar correction commence.

Regards,

Mr D.R Scott LLB(Hons) Dip Legal Practice.




Paul Barford said...

Mr Scott, if the name of somebody who is addressing you does not matter to you, it does to me. I said I do not accept anonymous comments.

I do not accept that, as somebody concerned with the protection/preservation of archaeological evidence, I am in any way wrong to be critical of the sort of people that would trash it for pleasure or private profit. Fortunately "metal detecting" is no more a race or religion than park bench smashing or hunting. What a strange idea.

>. Just be kind. Just step-down. Just consider that perhaps we have more in common than you are willing to admit. The time you invest could be used to educate, rather than criticise.<
Now as you know, apart from not a few shelf-loads of books on the topic, there is a multi-million public-funded Scheme set up to do precisely that (educate) and has been doing it 23 years. So that's ITS job, that what IT has spent 23 years of public funded time for 40/50 people doing. I think I am therefore perfectly at liberty to look at that, look at the effects and say that in my opinion (and why), they've done a crappy job for all of that money. And that if they carry on doing it that way, it will continue to fail in the same areas.

This blog is full not only of (perfectly justified) criticism but also ideas of how we could be doing things differently. Isn't it? And yes, there is another webpage going up soon on "Best Practice for Responsible collecting" (https://archaeologywassat.blogspot.com/2019/11/blog-post.html)
but it takes time to get it right, even in lockdown.

>. consider that perhaps we have more in common than you are willing to admit <

So superficial detectorists and superficial jobsworth archaeologists tell me. All the time. Neither however seems to have much of an idea why we DO NOT. So, when I try to "consider it", both run away from expanding that soundbite into a more rounded argument that addresses the real concerns. So please save your breath. I've been studying metal detectorists since the 1970s, and more consistently for the last twenty years. You say you are a newbie, perhaps wait another twenty years before you start lecturing me what I "should" think about collection-driven exploitation of the archaeological record. OK?

>. You'll find us a very warm and friendly group. <
That's what the hare coursers said.

Now, as I said at the beginning and you totally IGNORE (very rude of you), the post above to which this is your comment is on archaeological standards, not "detectorists" (real or fictional). Please keep to the topic.

southwestpaw said...

Dear Mr Barford.

Thank you for your reply. I note that you seem to draw a comparison between an invitation to a hare coursing event and an invitation to come metal detecting. You are right I am a 'newbie' to the hobby of metal detecting, but I have had long dogs and Lurchers for many year....never been hare coursing though growing up in the countryside lamping for rabbits with a whippet was common amongst people I knew. The use of this metaphor seems actually quite good because it does demonstrate quite perfectly your view of the world and the hobby of metal detecting.

You have written that comment with the EXACT prejudice that I complained of. That of casting a whole group conducting a hobby into the same melting pot. You seem to be incapable of differentiating between CRIMINALS...and people to whom staying within the spirit and letter of the law is important. There is a vast difference.

Did you for instance, before publishing that video contact Somerset Detectorists for their opinion, or to gather their view, or to hear what they had so say. Did you contact the FLO? - quite a cleary from the comments from others and then from yourself you DID NOT. You jump right in with a pair of walking boots and start the 'touchline criticism'.

New to this hobby? You bet I am and I am learning that no matter what hobby you pick, whether it is cycling, fishing, hiking or horse riding there is always going to be someone to try and burst your bubble.

We don't have time to all be experts in every field of interest but it doesn't make an opinion any less valid or your thirst for knowledge less important. Everything you don't know is something you have not learnt yet.

regards

D.R Scott

Paul Barford said...

[yawn]
You seem unable to understand that this is a comment ON THE POST ABOVE.

>. The use of this metaphor seems actually quite good <
yes indeed, I have all the best metaphors, everyone says, Nobody has better metaphors than me.

My "views" of metal detecting and the archaeologists that support it come precisely from those DECADES of contact with people just like you and your mates and your weak, pathetic self-serving arguments.

.

TheFerret said...

Paul, I see you have all comments moderated, why is that? Is is because you like to manipulate those comments to make you look clever and those that own you you delete!!!
Your such a troll. BTW thanks for the clicks on youtube haha they have gained alot of subscribers from your rants...

Paul Barford said...


Just so this does not disappear.

20 June 2020 at 21:43
TheFerret said...
Now corrected in video description. ARCHI'S uncover.. And yes they left a mess and hence why they were not invited back to uncover more.... So the next hoard was uncovered and recorded without the Archie's at land owners request...


TheFerret said...

Paul even time team bring in metal detectorists why? Because we can find what you guys ONLY Guess at.... Fact and proven as seen on TV haha now get a life in Poland and you couldn't make one here in the UK as your a sad troll and your only there bec6the Polish can't understand your rants. But if your ever back in the uk feel free to pick up a metal detector and walk the talk fella... 10 years detecting 10 years of listening to archis moaning that US Detecortists found IT Before You guys....

Paul Barford said...

This is possibly it: Record ID: SOM-9F1577 "[...] They were removed from the field by the finder. The finder reports [...] Although some scraps of pottery were in the area [...] [they] were not retained by the finder". If that's it, some "record" these clowns made. Of course the point is lost on them that if the proper arrangements cannot be made for the finds from a project to be dealt with according to the Code of Practice of the Treasure Act, they have absolutely no business searching in the first place, and certainly the Treasure reward should be waive from both the finder as well as the non-compliant landowner.

TheFerret said...

Fact is the Land owner didn't like the way you Archies left the land... There land was left in a right state... So when they found ANOTHER hoard the land owner requested NOT to inform them because they (Archies) left a mess... So they had no opion but to recover and record themselves... Bad Archies hey... lets tar them all like YOU tar US... FACT. now jog on pal you left the UK for a reason why was that? You hated it so you jumped the fence to throw stones back... Keep clicking buddy every click helps.. Feed a troll they say.. Are you full yet ?

Paul Barford said...

Just in case this disappears:

TheFerret said...
Fact is the Land owner didn't like the way you Archies left the land... There land was left in a right state... So when they found ANOTHER hoard the land owner requested NOT to inform them because they (Archies) left a mess... So they had no opion but to recover and record themselves... Bad Archies hey... lets tar them all like YOU tar US... FACT. now jog on pal you left the UK for a reason why was that? You hated it so you jumped the fence to throw stones back... Keep clicking buddy every click helps.. Feed a troll they say.. Are you full yet ?

21 June 2020 at 10:58

Paul Barford said...

"Jumped the fence" you say (go on say it, "Traitor"). Well you sit and fester on your blue-passported, ill-governed, isolationist, Covid-infested little island, with all the Baz Thugwits, while I enjoy my European freedoms.

Yes, they had an option, which was in a situation where they were unable to deal with the finds properly, responsibly refrain from detecting on that land until they were.

TheFerret said...

Just in case this disappears:!!!! Love your emails... Just in case what? I have everything documented, by law here in the UK everything was done above board. The BM thanked us and as you have seen written a report. Now you fella need to concentrate on your life in Poland and butt out of the UK you abandoned the UK for a better life wo you thought!!! Is it? As you keep commenting on us when you left... Is the Grass not as green as you thought and you shot your mouth off that you now not wanted back here... You made your bed now lie in it you sad little troll... My comments are recorded btw... So keep firing your posts as they make a comic out of them.

Paul Barford said...

Well, I think that just about exhausts the topic of the excavation that this post was about. As usual, the metal detectorists, true to form, (a) play the victim and (b) drag everything down to a personal level, and (c) generally fail to grasp what the issue under discussion is (too many words, probably) an can't keep to the topic.

Paul Barford said...

Comments on this post are now closed.

TheFerret said...

I think with your comments you have shown your true colours. So we see you hated the UK the Blue -passported etc etc. So you had to milk the Polish systems when the UK stopped paying for you then? Really you are such a trolling leach.. now jog on fella butt out. We live in the UK YOU DON'T...

 
Creative Commons License
Ten utwór jest dostępny na licencji Creative Commons Uznanie autorstwa-Bez utworów zależnych 3.0 Unported.