Friday, 31 January 2020

"Officially exported by Archbshop Alexios, Greek Orthodox Church, December 8, 1967"


The Dubai based coin collector/dealer Tareq Hani is getting over-bothered that I am discussing information in the public sphere (some of it put there on his own behalf) about the confusion surrounding some recent finds of ancient coins. He's been sending a stream of comments to my several posts here. One in particular seems worth highlighting. It is under this post: Sunday, 26 January 2020, 'Another 'Archbishop Alexios' Alexander III Decadrachm' making reference to the protocol dated "2-5-2005" (second of May, or fifth of February?) created while handing back to the family items that had been deposited with the church on 8th December 1967. I noted that there was no coin on that list of the same weight as the one sold in the US on 14th January this year that was linked in the description of the collecting history to that documented deposit. Look what Mr Hani writes (31 January 2020 at 02:35 ):
tareq hani collection said... again, I'll explain you this one . if you watch the bbc investigation you would definitely understand that there's one more will be on sale which means this one also they hided weights and Mm. on the documents because family doesn't accept to share the whole info. anout ghazzat hoard and they Alexander DECADRACHMs they both were totally in different time than the discovered of new hoard .
Who is this "they" who hid the information? The family?

[UPDATE: In a comment below the Hami Collection spoksesperson clarifies:
the document is definitely true but as fam infomed BBC for some reasons to hide the number of coins so it doesnt burn the value .
When was 'the number of coins' being given back by the Church falsified in a document issued BY the Church as a receipt for the coins being returned to the family? Why when writing a protocol of return did the Church deliberately not include all the items 'so as not to burn the value' (and why was that of concern to Archbishop Alexios, was he selling them too?)? Why would the Church issue a document that did not correspond to the real situation (ie to the real number and character of the deposited items being returned)? The purpose of a protocol of return is to document that the Church has done what it was requested to do and is handing over the objects (these objects documented) to the owners and handing over responsibility for these specific objects. The objects not on the list would, it terms of the protocol, still be the responsibility of the Church. Also, why is there no counter-signature of the recipient on this protocol? How can the Church show that it has correctly discharged its responsibilities on the basis of such a document? All very odd and irregular]

So, let me get this right, is what Mr Hami Collection is now saying is that this "document" of 2005 that is presented is NOT in fact an original document of 2005 signed by the Archbishop that is the contemporary and irrefutable documentation of what was in the Church deposit between 1967 and 2005? Is he revealing that it is a redacted version produced later, and in which "they" (presumably "the family that doesn't want to share the whole information") edited out the very information that would allow confirmation that specific coins were in that deposit? Is that what he is are saying? If so, what value is that "document" at all? If that is the correct meaning of what he said, no matter who signed it, it has no value at all. Let's see the originals.

What does it mean in this collecting history: "Tareq Hani Collection. Officially exported by Archbshop Alexios, Greek Orthodox Church, December 8, 1967". Why would an archbishop be exporting coins on behalf of the family that had just deposited them with him in 1967? So this coin from the Hani family collection was in the hands of the Archbishop, who exported it, on the same day that the family deposited for safe keeping OTHER coins (which just happen to all be Alex III dekas too) as shown in the signed document the family provided to the BBC? I must say, I find this all very confusing.

What is the legal status of ancient silver coins found in the land (or the sea) of the Gaza region in or before December 1967? What laws apply to them, and is it really a case of "finders keepers"? The area at the time was under Egyptian administration.

As I asked: "Where did these 500 coins pictured on the dealer's website on 28th August 2018 come from? Where were they in 1967?" How many hoards were there? Where are they now? That's a perfectly justifiable question in the public interest.

Why and how did the Archbishop "export" that coin? Did the Archbishop "export" other cultural property in this period? What is going on here?

36 comments:

tareq hani collection said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paul Barford said...

If the "document" shown as evidence is tampered with, it is no document. It is a stage prop.

The word "decadrachm" on the screenshot from the BBC was put there ... er.... by the BBC. I call them "coins". They are coins aren't they? Not fakes?

> be sure i personally will answer all your questions<

Promise? As a good Christian from one of the "biggest Christian families in the Middle East"? I really would like to believe that. Where shall we start?

tareq hani collection said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paul Barford said...

Yes, we have email in Poland. But would I be able to use the information on my blog? And if I can, why not just go ahead and publish the full details, everything you know, about the pre-1967 'hoard', 1967 deposition with Archbp Alexandrios and its 2005 recovery, the Archbishop's involvement in the 'export' (and selling?) of some of the items the Church was looking after, how and when the present state of the protocol that was shown by the BBC was created, and what it looked like before (as you say), information was removed from it, where is the 2005 original protocol, presumably with the signature of the recipient(s)? Where those coins are now and how they got there. Then the 2017 discovery, and the coins that are surfacing that the BBC could not establish were from either find, so is there a third? What is the legal situation of all these groups of coins in relation to the laws in force at the place and time of their discovery? Why are they in private hands at all? And if they are owned legally, why has there been no transparency about how they are being surreptitiously slipped onto the market? What is the name of this "North American dealer" and how did they get the coin attributed to them, and when? The Canadian collector? If these were legal transactions why can we not have the same kind of established ownership trail as we do in the case of other types of cultural property, such as antiquarian books? [for example: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bloomsbury/catalogue-id-blooms1-10005/lot-f9f79033-6bf6-4bf0-83ac-aa5c00d76f1d]

I think they are all questions we would like to have answers to in order to understand the background to the BBC video.


tareq hani collection said...

you can use it in your blogger yes .
American dealer or Canadian etc... i have no idea from where they got their coins . i think you watched the bbc Arabic are it's obvious that you didn't understand it well . i advice you to watch the English film

Paul Barford said...

OK, so the answers to my questions? They will be where?

tareq hani collection said...

you can call me anytime . you know my collection Instagram page . your welcome anytime to send me there. a

Paul Barford said...

Over the past few days you have sent a steady stream of written comments to this blog. Above are just a few questions that you said you'd answer. Why not just answer them? Here. Where everyone can see, in YOUR OWN words. We are waiting.

tareq hani collection said...

seems your simply not looking to have an answers and simply i really have no time to waste over here .
second thing if your interested to know anything you can send me there and I'll call you so simply i can understand what your trying to know.
3rd you can simply share the points in a new blog when we speak so you can make your blog with the facts ur looking for.

anyway I'm not here to waste your or my time and incase you have anything against the fam or me simply there's a thousands of courts around the world please take a visit and open a case.
it won't coast you more than 50$. if you say i can covet that for you.

otherwise your welcome to speak to me anytime and be sure will be glad talking and answering all your confusion.

Paul Barford said...

Please tell us more about the pre-1967 'hoard'. What were the details of its finding, what did it contain, what happened to the material in your family's hands?

What is the legal situation regarding that find?

Please tell us about the 1967 deposition with Archbp Alexandrios and its 2005 recovery,

What was the Archbishop's involvement in the 'export' (and selling?) of some of the items the Church was looking after?

You say the protocol that you provided to the BBC as 'evidence' was in fact altered before you did so,
how?

and why, if it is to serve as evidence?

when was the present state of the protocol that was shown by the BBC created, and what did it look like before (as you say), information was removed from it?

Where is the 2005 original protocol? Can we see it?

Why are there no signatures of teh recipients on the protocol that was shown to the BBC, were they removed too? Why?

Why do you (and the Archbishop) think the altered document can be used as evidence, when it clearly cannot?

Where are the pre-1967 coins now and how did they get there?

Paul Barford said...

Then the 2017 discovery, twell us what the BBC did not tell us about this hoard, what do you know about it?

Where are those coins now? If they left the Gaza Strip, how and when? As one group or small groups, and where did they go after that?


There were the coins that are surfacing now that the BBC could not establish were from either find, so is there a third?

What is the legal situation of all these groups of coins in relation to the laws in force at the place and time of their discovery?

Why are they in private hands at all?

And if they are owned legally, why has there been no transparency about how they are being surreptitiously slipped onto the market?

If these were legal transactions why can we not have the same kind of established ownership trail as we do in the case of other types of cultural property, such as antiquarian books? [for example: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bloomsbury/catalogue-id-blooms1-10005/lot-f9f79033-6bf6-4bf0-83ac-aa5c00d76f1d]

Thanks

tareq hani collection said...

by fhe way, why dint you approve all my comments?!
what makes yiu scared of contact me officially?

tareq hani collection said...

do you think if i know anything about the new found I'd hide it ?! and as BBC investigation they directly went to roma numismatics and the guy called salem shdifat. this question you must ask them

tareq hani collection said...

again, i do have comments since 3 days and they are not approved yet !

Your comment will be visible after approval.

why couldn't you approve all my comments which i wrote from this account

tareq hani collection said...

also my name is tareq hani not as you mentioned ' The Dubai based coin collector/dealer ' use a language that could show you as an archaeologist . if you weren't an archaeologist i really wouldn't waste my time with this grounded language

tareq hani collection said...

also, your asking me about that thing called Canadin collection or the north America etc....

what is my problem with them!? as the Canadian collector said he has an invoice and transition of his coins i suggest you to directly contact him and ask him whos the one sold them to him

tareq hani collection said...

about the new hoard, as BBC said and even the fishmen said they sold it to one guy in Jordan and this guy he has relation to the Canadian guy . so what is my problem?! why do you put me in the middle and ask me these questions?!

tareq hani collection said...

simply dear Paul if your looking for my view in this subject your welcome any time to speak to me and i can help you as much as i can to make a full blog about this subject but incse your here only to ask questions has no meaning or value to me it's better i just stop this byzantine discussion and let you keep writing your imagination .

i publically told you that you can call me anytime you wish but definitely you need to use much better tone with me as this kind of language not accepted to me .

other thing I'm not telling you that come to discuss you in dark room but I'm telling you call me anytime and ask all your questions and I'm again glad to tell you that I'm ready to answer you what i have to answer . but incase your hidden behind a keyboard in poland talking about things you know nth about you would waste everyone time .

aslo, incase your really caring to reach the answers for your questions you would from day one contact everyone mentioned in the BBC film not sharing an imagination you had.

Paul Barford said...

Right, since the afternoon of 30th January, you have sent 18 comments to this blog under different posts. Every single one of the ones that was in the "awaiting moderation" box was accepted immediately after I became aware that it was there (email notification). So if you think something is missing, please resend it and I'll put it up.

Now why don't I phone you up? First of all, take note that you are the one who wants something clarified. This blog comments on material in the public domain. That is all.

Secondly you threatened me that I was "libelling the family" - so I think any further contact should be WRITTEN and in a wholly publicly visible place. I do not trust coin dealers an inch, it's just how I am. No secret phone calls, black and white. You want to be transparent, I am offering the possibility.

Here I am, questions above, lots of words from you under them, not a single answer in fact.

tareq hani collection said...

also you were asking few questions that really shows that you didnt spend effort at all for the subject .
as what si the relation between tareq hani and rawia khader ?! hani family and khader family ? 😅 sorry but that part really funny to me . if you sepnd a 1 min only to check in google you would know simply the relation. which is simply his mother .

other funny question was , why the coin in January 2020 not in the film 😅😅 the film made before the coin appears in to the sale.

the funniest one the hammas thing 😅 youv shared a foolish post and trying to show that oh wow hammas gave the coins 'DECADRACHM' if you spent a few mins you would know the whole fam are orthodox from the first Christianity church in the whole world. and so definitely they wouldnt have anything to do with hammas or these kind of organisations

tareq hani collection said...

you used the word ''threatened'' that's also funny .

i didn't and i wouldn't ever use that stupid language . sorry but after these words your level goes really down to me .

if i wanted anything from you I'd not threat you but I'd directly make a case against you .

now i do have the answer why all yout blogs has 0 ZERO comments . simply because your having really low language and it doesnt show any respect at all .

definitely I'm not here to answer you anything and please please please please incase you have anything against the family go to the court .

i wouldn't waste a single moment with you as your last email shows clearly yout against the community of collecting itself and as you said you trust no dealer .

oh, again your wrong and it really shows that you didnt spend a single moment to read about me even.

I'm working in jewellery and othet kind of business and whole my fam does the same.

also we are all collector, i dont think a dealer would have a collection . as if he does then non will buy from him as all around they would say he keeps the best for his collection.


anyway, this is a byzantine discussion and i regret that i wasted my time . i suggest you to share more and more blogs and keep asking yourself .

tareq hani collection said...

one of your funniest questions.

Then the 2017 discovery, twell us what the BBC did not tell us about this hoard, what do you know about it? 


if BBC itself didnt tell you about it would you want me to tell you about something ruined the value of my fam collection?????

do you know i was the looser cus of this found ????? if this found didnt appear my coins value would be 10 times more !!!

so contact abu ahmad whom bbc interviewed him and ask him to who he sold them .

or simply contact roma numismatics or the Canadian guy or the north America one

tareq hani collection said...

other question from your questions it also really funny to me


Where are those coins now? If they left the Gaza Strip, how and when? As one group or small groups, and where did they go after that? 


as BBC said these coins has no pedigree expect the thing called north America thing or Canadian etc...

so where the new hoard is you must ask the fishmen but i think they already replied the BBC and also you neee to trach them from their photo.

dear logically as a normal human how would i know anything about the new hoard???? do you think if i knew anything about it I'd not directly infrom everywhere about it to protect my collection value???
also if they sold each with 15$ do you think the first buyer of this hoard refused to buy all of them???? be logical dear .

it's so funny . definitely if the guy who found them all asked for 15$ each ghe logic says the one who bought the first one definitely bought them all . specially with 15$ each . non of these dealer would reufse the fishmen offer ..


also how come u have questions about my collection if my collection had photos from before the new hoard?????

Paul Barford said...

21. 21 comments from you now.

tareq hani collection said...

you also asked ,
Why are they in private hands at all? 

are you asking me about my collection???
simply because it is our fam collection sincr 60s and we would never sell them all and be sure if the new hoard didnt appear in the market non from the fam would ever sell a single one of them dear.

but the new haord ruined the value of them.

but as fam we kept from them in our collection but not all

tareq hani collection said...

dear i replied you but you unfortunately never approve any answer but fine i resend as you asked

tareq hani collection said...

What is the legal situation of all these groups of coins in relation to the laws in force at the place and time of their discovery? 


this is a great question to be fair .


the new hoard definitely not legal to sell of theres any prove that its from the new haord but as i understood from BBC the fishmen provided the photos of their found.


but my collection its documented before the 1970 . if you spend time to check the laws you would understand that it is legeal to trade as its before the current laws

tareq hani collection said...

And if they are owned legally, why has there been no transparency about how they are being surreptitiously slipped onto the market? 

this is a good one as well.


did i hide that these coins were from my collection??? or i did share them in my social media in public before bbc film ages ago????

did i hide my document from the auction houses ????? come on !

tareq hani collection said...

If these were legal transactions why can we not have the same kind of established ownership trail as we do in the case of other types of cultural property, such as antiquarian books? [for example: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/bloomsbury/catalogue-id-blooms1-10005/lot-f9f79033-6bf6-4bf0-83ac-aa5c00d76f1d]


the link shows nth please check it again

tareq hani collection said...

Please tell us more about the pre-1967 'hoard'. What were the details of its finding, what did it contain, what happened to the material in your family's hands?



if you mean the DECADRACHMs then i guess you watched BBC film they mentioned the ones were sold and where? also i January one its mentioned in the description its from our collection.

so are you trying to know where is the rest? as of now with family and whenever we wanna consgin we are free to and if we wanna keep we are totally free to keep also.

tareq hani collection said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Paul Barford said...

What does it mean in this collecting history: "Tareq Hani Collection. Officially exported by Archbshop Alexios, Greek Orthodox Church, December 8, 1967"?

Paul Barford said...

"but my collection its documented before the 1970 . if you spend time to check the laws you would understand that it is legal to trade as its before the current laws"


First of all, if this "documented" means that piece of paper published by the BBC that purports to be a protocol of 2005 (nota bene) of a deposit allegedly made 38 years earlier, but which (by your own admission) has been tampered with, removing elements, then that is no document.

Secondly to which country's laws do you refer? It is NOT the "current laws" that determine legality of title, but the laws in force in the place and at the time they left the ground. Only if the find was treated in the way the law required at the time and then subsequent laws concerning, for example registering/reporting and export were followed is it legal. "Being above ground before 1970" is not sufficient.

Thomas said...

Whow ! What an argument ! I just came across this blog and this thread. Before the 1970s researchers and dealers used to cooperate. The "1973 Iraq Hoard" or "near babylon hoard" containing at least 8 Alexander decadrachms could be studied by academics thanks to the cooperation of dealers. The sad thing was that Iraq was deprived of its historical heritage, as the hoard was very legally dispersed in western auctions. Now that strict laws have been adopted to protect archaeological heritage - and it is, of course, an excellent thing - the bad side-effect is that people who find hoards keep it secret, and dealers too.
This Gaza underwater hoard consists of thousands of Alexander coins, most of them tetradrachms, a few of them decadrachms. The coins seem to be wide-spread on the sea-floor, some of them probably buried in the sand and pebbles, and it takes divers a very long time to search for them. The first coins were found in 2013, a big quantity early in 2017, and people are probably still searching.
Before 2015 only 14 Alexander decadrachms were known in the world. When such a coin was sold at an auction it came with a full verifiable pedigree. Suddenly in 2015 a new specimen was auctioned, another one in 2016, 11 more in 2017 (auctions, photos from dealers, seizing from a smuggler by the police), 12 in 2018, 6 or 7 in 2019... It's like the jackpot. None has a verifiable pedigree, most of them have a relation, one way or another, with Gaza.
Before the underwater Gaza Alexander hoard was found, only 14 Alexander decadrachms were known. From 2015 to 2019, 32 new specimens have surfaced on the market in Gaza, in Israel and in the West, private collections, or seized at the Gaza border. This is crystal clear. But nobody would publish serious verifiable information about such a wonderful archaeological discovery, to avoid getting in trouble, and we may understand it. Sad...

Paul Barford said...

So, yo think there were no laws in Iraq prior to 1973?

Thomas said...

It doesn't seem Iraq reclaimed this hoard, and its sale was perfectly legal in London. I think it would be different now.

 
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