There was a commercial artefact hunting rally held this weekend near Buckland Brewer in North Devon which sounds from the forum chatter to have been a right shambles (Fishermansam ,
Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:04 pm and Keeleyohara,
Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:58 pm). The participants were reportedly not able to find the site using the maps supplied at the gathering point. One of them mentions trying to access "land right around a famous iron age castle (sic)" then "the land surrounding a 13th c. market village". Another also headed "for the castle area". The problem was that the fields indicated as available on the map were full of tall vegetation (such as Christmas trees) or otherwise inaccessible ("
the guy who gave me the map was very enthusiastic and said "good things should come from there its never been detected" well i should of twigged on then really ..."). In the case of the castle site, a fellow detectorist "
said hed been trying for over an hour to get to the area that the castle was and that it was completely inaccessible boggy marshland full of trees and very high grass and had given up" so the participants "
made our way to another area with was supposed to be a settlement but either these ancient people didnt have 2 pennies to rub together or it had been detected before".
It seems the organizers had not done their homework and inspected the site before selling the tickets:
we then had an organiser come up and say the farmer hadnt listen to a word the club had said about the type of land to detect on and apologised on behalf of the club and said he was opening up the rest of the land that was being saved for the next days dig
I bet both the organizer and the farmer kept their money though. Throughout the rally, participants were coming up with almost no collectable finds at all (nota bene which was said by all to be unusual - "
evey single person i spoke to had not found a single thing not even the tin foil and gun cartridges ") and the thinking was that all of the fields made available had been heavily detected before, and
thus already depleted of any collectable elements of the archaeological record. Note also one other thing, these people are all
targeting likely productive areas next to ('castle', market town) or on ("settlement") known sites and monuments. Their collecting is not random.
Vignette:
One way to stop metal detecting.
14 comments:
Not sure what the purpose of you comments are?....These rallies take months of organising and every aspect is dealt with in a professional manner. There were problems with the land available yes, the morning session was supposed to be land around and iron age hill fort, it only came to light the evening before that there was a problem, the landowner had not understood the conditions that were needed for detecting (even though we had completely explained them all) so had offered another area as well as the land around the fort. Unfortunately he still had not made it clear that the fort area was really undetectable.
We have arranged many very successful rallies without problems, nobody has intentionally mislead or deceived anyone.
Yes there were problems, and we will learn from the issues that happened at this rally, some people could not find the site because they can't read a map or listen to instructions, the area covered was massive and some people will always get lost.
The three sites we offered were owned by three separate land owners, totalling over 400 acres we went through months of work to get all these people to allow us to hold the rally on their land, I can categorically guarantee 100% that ALL the land had NEVER been detected on, so you reading a forum and coming up with your accusations "and thus already depleted of any collectable elements of the archaeological record" are unfounded and not true, your making up what you think from other peoples comments, and your comments are just not worth posting.
On a positive note many items were found and donated to the Village which the local archaeological society were very happy about, a Civil war cannon ball and several musket balls were recovered from and area of the village which has helped substantiate where a local myth/story of a Civil war skirmish was. I met a guy who was over the moon on finding his first ever Roman coin, turns out this coin is one of the oldest to turn up in this part of North Devon, both recorded discoveries are you must agree a positive outcome of the event, which would almost certainly NEVER of come about if it was not for this rally. Another chap who found his first hammered coin (charles 1st sixpence) and was more than delighted, the majority of hammered coins were of this period, there were also several other very good finds, but to be honest nowhere near what we had hoped, we can only find the land and the rest is out of our hands, there was a FLO in attendance (which we insist on) We had paid for B&B accommodation for her to stay in which she failed to use, she turned up
late on Saturday and left without recording anything, returning mid morning on Sunday, some people had already left and their finds were probably not recorded, we can't force people to record finds, but we do expect a professional FLO to attend the event in good time to make it possible for people to do so.
We are perfectly within our rights to hold a rally or metal detect where ever we wish as long as we abide to all regulations that exist (which we ALWAYS DO).
I quote your words "Note also one other thing, these people are all targeting likely productive areas next to ('castle', market town) or on ("settlement") known sites and monuments. Their collecting is not random."
Your use of the term "these people" is insulting and demeaning, of coarse its not random, you wouldn’t fish in pond or river which had no evidence of life, the same as you wouldn’t mine for coal in the Sahara desert.
Again I quote your words “I bet both the organizer and the farmer kept their money though” yes the money we raised for “CHARITY”!!! was already paid to the charity in question……
And your use of words “There was a commercial artefact hunting rally”
I don’t think commercial is the correct word, do you?
Well, Mr… um er, “EDMDC” (is that really your name?), I am not sure how to answer your first “question” which is formulated as a statement. The last one I can answer however, yes commercial is what I wrote, and is precisely what I meant. The rally is done to get money out of collectors by ripping up the archaeological record, not using it in a sustainable manner in a research project.. Whether that money goes to a nice animal welfare charity, the BNP or a Satanist cult really is immaterial.
I think if I was organizing a wedding party in some venue, I would go first and see whether it has a dance floor and adequate toilets and the kitchens look clean., I assume that when you “organize” any event, you’d go and inspect the venue properly. It is not very “professional” otherwise is it? Shows you’ve not done the footwork.
I am gutted to hear that the FLO was unable to satisfy your demands that she stay the entire weekend, it’s just not good enough its it? How “unprofessional” eh? I bet she’s so blooming unprofessional that she’s got a life outside the office and the metal detecting circuit, maybe a family even. The very idea! I’d make and official complaint to Roger Bland if I were you.
I mean we don’t want a return to the bad old days when they sat in their office and expected responsible detectorists to come to THEM, do we?
As for whether the searc areas had been done over before, I am reporting what people said (you can check out the originals from the links I give). I am not sure why that makes my comments “just not worth posting”. I think the rally raises a number of interesting points. Such as that we can never be really quite sure whether a negative result like this is due to factors such as the area not being used in the past (why?) or whether the region was overrun by nighthawks in the 1980s for example.
Another point, detectorists that “cannot read maps” are not going to be very good, or accurate when reporting findspots to the FLO are they? In fact they are going to give false information aren’t they?
But that is missing totally what I was writing about, which was the aspect of targeting. Somehow you seem to have avoided commenting on that.
But thank you for confirming what I have been saying all along about targeting. So you admit that a lot of the time detectorists are targeting the environs of sites already known, rather than finding loads and loads of totally new ones. That is a point I have been trying to get across.
”Your use of the term "these people" is insulting and demeaning”
is it? Like “these towns”,” these ancient people”, “these trousers” and “these chocolate covered biscuits” (“went into decline in the fifteenth century”/ “didn’t have two pennies to rub together”/ “are very comfortable”/ “are delicious”)? I don’t see it myself.
I can see that it is absolutely pointless even trying to engage in any form of dialogue with someone who clearly dis-likes metal detectorists and their hobby.
What kind of a "dialogue" were you expecting? About what precisely?
Did you actually take the time to READ a few of the other posts on this blog about other rallies I have discussed, about what I see as the "portable antiquity collecting issues"? If not, how can you expect to have any kind of a "dialogue"? With what do you come to the debate?
Coming unprepared is indeed pointless.
Im trying to get a refund from these people who ripped me off. they don't even reply to my emails. email sent to one of the organisers called Julia aka 1 Spruntulis, if I do not get a reply soon then I will give out the email address. cheers keith
To keeley ohara,
metal detecting in not getting stronger as a hobby when the likes of EDMDC sell you a rally under false pretences. All my emails sent asking for a refund have been ignored. so much for comradeship eh? this is the sort of thing which brings the hobby into disrepute.
The problem is of course those among the supporters of artefact hunting like Mr O'Hara that are simply in denial. There is "no problem", any issues are just imaginary - the product of a few "people with nothing to do". There is no point in even contemplating "dialogue" with such as these.
Thanks, Arry
The trouble is “these people” who don’t live in the real world or even this country, have no idea or knowledge of people’s real lives.
We were contacted by the people of Buckland Brewer asking US if we could help them raise money for their newly opened community shop to have a toilet installed for disable access. ALL proceeds went to this cause, we have NEVER taken ANY profit from ANY rally we have EVER held, and NEVER intend to, I and several others give up MANY hours of OUR time every year to help run these CHARITY events with NO FINANCIAL reward, so local charities and schools will benefit, these events also give MD clubs in the south-west a focal event to their year, if anything is found this is a bonus….. Please anyone else who wish’s to do ALL this work, please be my guest.
We have raised on average £6,000 every year over the past five years, for various causes, 3 x Primary schools in desperate need of funds, a still born birth charity, a 16 year old lad who lost his leg due to meningitis who was in desperate need of an operation in America. In ALL these case's, these organisations have made contact with US asking for our help, NOT the other way round.
Am sure you are all aware that many villages are dying on their feet, many have lost their pubs, even more have No shop, we all find this a sad affair. The PEOPLE of Buckalnd Brewer ask us for their help, these are the people who actually live there, some for many, many generations, they were VERY, VERY happy with the money we raised, the items we unearthed and GAVE to the village, the discovery of the possible Civil war skirmish, the discussions and the wealth of knowledge that was imparted to the inquisitive villagers by the detectorists about the finds and history in general.
Paul, I respect your belief’s, but please try to be archaeologist and metal detectorists are not ALL at logger heads, our club has a good relationship with them, we do everything possible to make sure finds are recorded properly and accurately even items that are post 1700 which are not required to be recorded, we both have lots to learn from each other, but your purposeful seeking out of any small issue within the MD world and trying to blow it out of all proportion is spiteful and not helpful to anyone.
Out of the 120 people who attended I have many people who are perfectly happy and had a great weekend, even though they found absolutely NOTHING these people totally understand that some times things do go wrong and most of all NO ONE KNOWS what may or may not be in a filed, this is why we go detecting…to find out!!
Yes there are some people complaining, but you are taking their qualms and exploiting this to support your case to ridicule our hobby.
Keith, Julia is on Holiday, I have received NO emails from anyone, am sure she will respond to you when she returns. You have not been ripped off !!! the morning session of fields (3 hrs of detecting) were unsuitable yes, and we have apologised for that, we did offer and open up and extra 80 acres of land that was never intend to be used….ALL the land 100% categorically had NEVER EVER been detected on, it’s just unfortunate that the finds were few, but there were some very productive hot spots, you just had to find them……I found nothing. Should I ask for a refund??
"Thanks, Arry"
The name is Paul.
I think there are ways of making money that do not involve the erosion of history. I do not know why I should be happy that those are ignored and ripping up the archaeology is chosen. Why not organize a charity token hunt on a local beach? Organize a display in the village hall of finds or whatever.
If you look, the tekkies' accusations of bad organization are just the back story to three issues (a), the commercialisation of the exploitation of the archaeological record, (b) the depletion [ie destruction] of the archaeological record through the activity and (c) the targeting of known sites.
I am not trying to "ridicule [y]our hobby" for the sake of it. I think current policies are seriously damaging Britain's archaeological record and our ability to understand it, and that is primarily because certain issues (like the three mentioned above) are being sidelined for convenience, whereas the evidence from the detectorists' own words (as in the forums) reveals these are real and not imaginary problems. I want to draw attention to the issues that are being sidelined. Supporters of artefact hunting may be in denial, but these problems do exist and do have to be faced, by both sides. If you are as responsble collectors as you claim to be YOU and not me would be raising these issues. There is nothing "spiteful" in anyone saying - "look, here are some issues we need urgently to discuss". Your suggestions otherwise raise questions about your motives for wanting to avoid discussing them (when you pretend you came here seeking "dialogue").
"there were some very productive hot spots"
so archaeological sites? Do they figure prominently in the PAS documentation now?
If the village has so few facilities, where will the finds you and the landowner gave them be housed? In the new public conveniences? Who is going to look after them, and who pays for that and where does that money come from?
Pray tell dear Paul....is there a reason why you have failed to publish the post I wrote earlier today, am I not allowed to defend my situation with valid comments or is it that you are incompetent.....are you note going to publish this also.
I made many very worthy and valid points, which you have responded to but you don not let me have my say, is this blog run by dictatorship???
in case you have deleted my earlier post hear it is again...
The trouble is “these people” who don’t live in the real world or even this country, have no idea or knowledge of people’s real lives.
We were contacted by the people of Buckland Brewer asking US if we could help them raise money for their newly opened community shop to have a toilet installed for disable access. ALL proceeds went to this cause, we have NEVER taken ANY profit from ANY rally we have EVER held, and NEVER intend to, I and several others give up MANY hours of OUR time every year to help run these CHARITY events with NO FINACIAL reward, so local charities and schools will benefit, these events also give MD clubs in the southwest a focal event to their year, if anything is found this is a bonus….. Please anyone else who wish’s to do ALL this work, please be my guest.
We have raised on average £6,000 every year over the past five years, for various causes, 3 x Primary schools in desperate need of funds, a still born birth charity, a 16 year old lad who lost his leg due to meningitis who was in desperate need of an operation in America. In ALL these case's, these organisations have made contact with US asking for our help, NOT the other way round.
Am sure you are all aware that many villages are dying on their feet, many have lost their pubs, even more have No shop, we all find this a sad affair. The PEOPLE of Buckalnd Brewer ask us for their help, these are the people who actually live there, some for many, many generations, they were VERY, VERY happy with the money we raised, the items we unearthed and GAVE to the village, the discovery of the possible Civil war skirmish, the discussions and the wealth of knowledge that was imparted to the inquisitive villagers by the detectorists about the finds and history in general.
Paul, I respect your belief’s, but please try to be archaeologist and metal detectorists are not ALL at logger heads, our club has a good relationship with them, we do everything possible to make sure finds are recorded properly and accurately even items that are post 1700 which are not required to be recorded, we both have lots to learn from each other, but your purposeful seeking out of any small issue within the MD world and trying to blow it out of all proportion is spiteful and not helpful to anyone.
Out of the 120 people who attended I have many people who are perfectly happy and had a great weekend, even though they found absolutely NOTHING these people totally understand that some times things do go wrong and most of all NO ONE KNOWS what may or may not be in a filed, this is why we go detecting…to find out!!
Yes there are some people complaining, but you are taking their qualms and exploiting this to support your case to ridicule our hobby.
Kieth, Julia is on Holiday, I have received NO emails from anyone, am sure she will respond to you when she returns. You have not been ripped off !!! the morning session of fields (3 hrs of detecting) were unsuitable yes, and we have apologised for that, we did offer and open up and extra 80 acres of land that was never intend to be used….ALL the land 100% categorically had NEVER EVER been detected on, it’s just unfortunate that the finds were few, but there were some very productive hot spots, you just had to find them……I found nothing. Should I ask for a refund??
If there was another post today, I did not get it. Please send it again.
I think really, objectively speaking, you have indeed had quite a bit of space under this relatively short post to "have your say", don't you? I really see very little foundation for your accusations of "dictatorship" or "incompetence" which is the usual crap metal detectorists come out with when somebody actually challenges what they say.
By the way this is MY blog, don't know if you noticed. Here you are my guest.
You have posted the same text twice. I answered it the first time, and now your second one has arrived and occupies the space before my post suggesting you might like to post again. I suspect your computer is putting the wrong time stamp on your messages which is why blogger is placing them in the wrong order and we seem to be talking at cross purposes.
I see no points which stand out as being "very worthy and valid". I think you are trying to waste everybody's time with your accusations and dodging the issues.
Enough.
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